WHS doesn't work

[bobmac]

0.4

You of all people should know how much work and practice is involved to get that good, you must have experienced the times when you play well and win nothing and yet you insist that it's the old system that gave lower handicappers a significant advantage ???
I have a small trophy cabinet that contains mostly scratch trophies which proves that is not the case.

 

[Swango1980]

I don't care about stableford scores etc - I know my course is 38 to handicap,

So what you've told me is, my course handicap at Raven should be lower? Would that in turn eventually raise my HI? Because I cant play much lower than I am... certainly couldn't play to 11.

I think the key issue is that, pre WHS, players needed to compare their score to SSS (CSS). So some courses 36 points was to handicap (or nett par, forgetting scores worse than nett double for now), others 37, 38 39, etc and others 35, 34, 32. The "harder" courses meant that a lower score (points) would be required to play to handicap.

With WHS, it is still exactly the same, except SSS is now called CR.

This is all fine, and from a technical stand point there is not an issue (unless you are like BB and simply say SSS and CR are all wrong, but I'll let him argue that one because I'm not sure how he can defend that stance).

However, pre WHS and post WHS, the regular golfer doesn't really get that often. It is so much easier to compare their scores to the Par of the Course / 36 Stableford points in medal / stableford play. And, they could do this if CR-Par was also factored into the equation, like across the rest of the world. In my opinion, sadly they did not do this over here, and so golfers still have to be told they are comparing their score to CR, often with the same confusion on their part as pre WHS.

 

[fundy]

what does the W stand for in WHS?

 

[bobmac]

what does the W stand for in WHS?

Whatever

 

[wjemather]

You of all people should know how much work and practice is involved to get that good, you must have experienced the times when you play well and win nothing and yet you insist that it's the old system that gave lower handicappers a significant advantage ???
I have a small trophy cabinet that contains mostly scratch trophies which proves that is not the case.

Handicap systems aren't there to reward practice or talent; they are simply there to allow people of different abilities to compete equitably.
It's almost impossible to remove systemic bias completely, but the old system heavily favoured lower handicappers - all data analysis has clearly shown that.

 

[bobmac]

Handicap systems aren't there to reward practice or talent; they are simply there to allow people of different abilities to compete equitably.

No they are not, they are there to help people win who can't be bothered to practice.

It's almost impossible to remove systemic bias completely, but the old system heavily favoured lower handicappers - all data analysis has clearly shown that.

Ah...... good old data analysis.
Don't you know that the majority of statistics are never checked?

I gave up playing amateur golf in 2004 because the handicap system favoured the mid-to high handicaps. Now that I have retired from the PGA and playing full time, I have no intention in joining a handicap system that allows such high handicaps, so you are right about one thing..... I have no interest in learning the WHS handbook.

 

[Deleted member 30522]

Par 69, CR 67.1 (whites) and 65.8 (yellows) at home versus par 71, CR 71.4 (whites) and 70.1 (yellows) at Hayling.

So Haylings Yellows are 3 shots harder than our whites going by CR

I play off 13 at Raven (Course Handicap) off the whites

I played off 13 at Hayling off the yellows.

Where are the 3 shots going if they aren't being added to my course handicap? Are you going to tell me its something to do with a 67 rated course with a 69 par?

They're added to your gross score. At the 67.1 course, you were expected to shoot 80 in old money. At the 71.4 course you'd have been expected to shoot 84.

Now instead your handicap will move even though you're playing to a rated course that is meant to show difficulty already.

 

[Bdill93]

If we changed to use the same calculation as outside GB&I (which includes the "Course Rating - Par" adjustment), your Course Handicap at home would (most likely) be 2 strokes lower than it is now, so 11 from the whites (the actual difference is 1.9, so it could be just 1 stroke lower for some indexes - due to rounding).

The Handicap Index calculation is the same (using your adjusted gross relative to CR and adjusted for Slope - course handicap and par are irrelevant other than for nett double bogey adjustments), so your HI would be the same.

But with this adjustment surely it would mean a score of 83 moved from being a score diff of say 14 to 15.9?

Side note - not using accurate data with this question, just wondering as it'd be laughable me being off single figures anywhere 83 is actually about a 16 at our place

 

[Bdill93]

They're added to your gross score. At the 67.1 course, you were expected to shoot 80 in old money. At the 71.4 course you'd have been expected to shoot 84.

Now instead your handicap will move even though you're playing to a rated course that is meant to show difficulty already.

So the handicaps aren't portable at all in current form then.

 

[Deleted member 30522]

So the handicaps aren't portable at all in current form then.

To me they are a farce. The worst of it is folks don't know what their handicap is when they turn up for an open somewhere.

 

[Backsticks]

Played today where we had a guy play off a 49 handicap and he had 40 points.....it is a joke.

Don't go and get lessons we will just give you more handicap seems to be the rule of thought.

Yes, thats exactly the point of, and strength of, the handicap system. You appear to be getting the point, that it doesnt require you to get lessons, and it will give you more shots if you need them, but missing the point that this is exactly what it is designed to do, and what we want it to do. Its the point of handicapping. Lessons or skill level are irrelevant.

 

[wjemather]

But with this adjustment surely it would mean a score of 83 moved from being a score diff of say 14 to 15.9?

The Score Differential is (almost always*) the same:

Score Differential = (Adjusted Gross - Course Rating - PCC adjustment) x (113 / Slope Rating)​

Par and course handicap are not (directly*) part of this calculation.

​

* The only way the SD would be different is if the adjusted gross were affected by nett double bogey adjustments on the holes where fewer/more strokes were received.

 

[wjemather]

So the handicaps aren't portable at all in current form then.

Yes, they are entirely portable - having a Handicap Index calculated using the same methodology (i.e. same course rating system, same differential calculations, etc.) is the only requirement for this to be true, and that is what WHS provides.

In a competition, every player uses the Course Handicap (and Playing Handicap) calculations of the jurisdiction they are in, regardless of how they might do it at home.

 

[Backsticks]

No they are not, they are there to help people win who can't be bothered to practice.

This really is nonsense, and shows a total misunderstanding of the purpose of a handicap system.
It is nothing to do with practice, golf level, or improvement/disimprovement. It is about one score, on one day, relative to a handicap.

 

[Bdill93]

The Score Differential is (almost always*) the same:

Score Differential = (Adjusted Gross - Course Rating - PCC adjustment) x (113 / Slope Rating)​

Par and course handicap are not (directly*) part of this calculation.

​

* The only way the SD would be different is if the adjusted gross were affected by nett double bogey adjustments on the holes where fewer/more strokes were received.

You've lost me even more now! Thought we were getting somewhere... I appreciate your continued responses btw - not trying to argue with you - this just doesn't seem to make sense to me at all.

So my course is easier than all these other places to play - plain and simple and the stats agree - we can both agree on this.

With correct "portable handicaps" in place - my HI would go down not up?

Reversed I see this making sense - a tougher home course player could shoot +3 but still be 0 score diff, but at my place surely the score diffs should increase and not decrease?

 

[bobmac]

Lessons or skill level are irrelevant.

Skill levels are irrelevant in a sport....got you

This really is nonsense, and shows a total misunderstanding of the purpose of a handicap system.
It is nothing to do with practice, golf level, or improvement/disimprovement. It is about one score, on one day, relative to a handicap.

And the person with the wrongest handicap wins.
Just out of interest, if the system works so well, why do comps need divisions?

 

[Backsticks]

Skill levels are irrelevant in a sport....got you



And the person with the wrongest handicap wins.
Just out of interest, if the system works so well, why do comps need divisions?

Yes, skill level is irrelevant. Performance in one round, relative to a slill level, is what the competition is.
You are thinking of gross competition, not net handicapped competition.
They are two different things.

 

[Backsticks]

Skill levels are irrelevant in a sport....got you



And the person with the wrongest handicap wins.
Just out of interest, if the system works so well, why do comps need divisions?

No, the person who plays best relative to their handicap wins.

Who says competitions need divisions ?

 

[wjemather]

With correct "portable handicaps" in place - my HI would go down not up?

Reversed I see this making sense - a tougher home course player could shoot +3 but still be 0 score diff, but at my place surely the score diffs should increase and not decrease?

No, your Handicap Index would be the same. It is this that is portable.

Course Handicaps are not portable, as they are specific to the course and tees being played.

There are two different methods for using the Handicap Index to calculate Course Handicaps - one in GB&I, and the other (pretty much) everywhere else. With the RoW method, the difference between courses can sometimes be more noticeable because it normalises the Course Handicap to be relative to Par, rather than the Course Rating.

This may help (or may further confuse!)...

The perceived difficulty of a course is commonly relative to par, but for handicapping, par is actually irrelevant. For example, take two 250 yard holes, identical in every way except one is a par 3 and the other a par 4. For handicapping they are both rated the same - so equal difficulty - but the natural perception is that the par 3 is difficult and the par 4 easy, even though they are the same hole. Extending this to a course of 18 identical holes, it's hopefully easier to see why the same score would result in the same differential. The same applies whether or not you receive a stroke on some holes (unless nett double bogeys come into play).

 

[Bdill93]

No, your Handicap Index would be the same. It is this that is portable.

Course Handicaps are not portable, as they are specific to the course and tees being played.

There are two different methods for using the Handicap Index to calculate Course Handicaps - one in GB&I, and the other (pretty much) everywhere else. With the RoW method, the difference between courses can sometimes be more noticeable because it normalises the Course Handicap to be relative to Par, rather than the Course Rating.

This may help (or may further confuse!)...

The perceived difficulty of a course is commonly relative to par, but for handicapping, par is actually irrelevant. For example, take two 250 yard holes, identical in every way except one is a par 3 and the other a par 4. For handicapping they are both rated the same - so equal difficulty - but the natural perception is that the par 3 is difficult and the par 4 easy, even though they are the same hole. Extending this to a course of 18 identical holes, it's hopefully easier to see why the same score would result in the same differential. The same applies whether or not you receive a stroke on some holes (unless nett double bogeys come into play).

Further confused.....

Im going to just give up and continue to moan that I deserve more shots... I know that if I joined another course locally that my handicap would go upwards and not downwards with the same performances I put in at Raven - all is not right here!