WHS doesn't work

[D-S]

Most of the basic questions I see come from club management and admin staff who wouldn't be expected to know this stuff rather than handicap committees (some of which I know are sufficiently knowledgeable). If anything it is highlighting lack of effective communication/organisation within some golf clubs rather than lack of knowledge within handicap committees - why aren't they consulting their handicap committees before going to county or the internet?? and where daily handicap admin is being performed by insufficiently knowledgeable club staff without the necessary checks.

The lack of knowledge is quite considerable among both handicap committee members and club staff/management. Handicap committee members are consulting the county about a lot of extremely basic issues as they are unable to answer member queries on the most straightforward of the recent changes. There have been questions on subjects which were well covered in the seminars and zoomcalls that they attended. However at least those have tried to reach out for an answer for their members. I dread to think what misinformation is spread by those who don’t.

 

[Alan Clifford]

When changing my shoes in the car park on Wednesday, I was asked about a strange email from Howdidido regarding a blokes playing handicap. I explained CR-par.

I think maybe this conversation triggered the following email sent out today that has me completely nonplussed:


Dear Alan
On 1st April England Golf changed the course handicap rules, you can read about these on the
www.englandgolf.org site. However, an additional equation now means playing 9 holes is thought to be
slightly easier than 18 (more likely to make a messed up hole over 18) and on our course the yellow is
easier than the white, so you may lose a stroke playing yellow, but gain 2 playing white.
If you are a member and have a wdf handicap, you should have been told your course handicap on
howdidido, if you do not have this or are a visitor, there are tables for each tee for 9 front or back
or 18 on the notice board in the diner
Please also note winter rules changed to summer on 1st May

 

[D-S]

When changing my shoes in the car park on Wednesday, I was asked about a strange email from Howdidido regarding a blokes playing handicap. I explained CR-par.

I think maybe this conversation triggered the following email sent out today that has me completely nonplussed:


Dear Alan
On 1st April England Golf changed the course handicap rules, you can read about these on the
www.englandgolf.org site. However, an additional equation now means playing 9 holes is thought to be
slightly easier than 18 (more likely to make a messed up hole over 18) and on our course the yellow is
easier than the white, so you may lose a stroke playing yellow, but gain 2 playing white.
If you are a member and have a wdf handicap, you should have been told your course handicap on
howdidido, if you do not have this or are a visitor, there are tables for each tee for 9 front or back
or 18 on the notice board in the diner
Please also note winter rules changed to summer on 1st May

Who sent the mail out?

 

[Backache]

It does seem unfortunate to put it mildly that four years after it's introduction, it's machinations still can't be simply explained to a handicap committee and there are continued problems.

 

[Genu9]

It does seem unfortunate to put it mildly that four years after it's introduction, it's machinations still can't be simply explained to a handicap committee and there are continued problems.

By not implementing the full version of WHS four years ago GB&I made a rod for their own back. Players got used to the system and got comfortable with how it worked. Now add 'unrounded' Course Handicap & CR-PAR and they are faced with what to them is a confusing change.
Hate to think what that decision four years ago has cost.......

 

[D-S]

By not implementing the full version of WHS four years ago GB&I made a rod for their own back. Players got used to the system and got comfortable with how it worked. Now add 'unrounded' Course Handicap & CR-PAR and they are faced with what to them is a confusing change.
Hate to think what that decision four years ago has cost.......

I hope that they're not keeping other tweaks up their sleeve for 2028 - MLS?

 

[clubchamp98]

It does seem unfortunate to put it mildly that four years after it's introduction, it's machinations still can't be simply explained to a handicap committee and there are continued problems.

We were assured that handicap comittiee work load would not go up!
Most are volunteers and are probably thinking “ sod this for a lark”

The system is over complicated most can see that but some just can’t.

 

[IanM]

It's massively over complicated.....but only if you worry about it, or bother trying to work stuff out.

If you just go and play golf and key in your score (and avoid threads like this) it's all fine!

Always stop to smell the flowers!

 

[clubchamp98]

It's massively over complicated.....but only if you worry about it, or bother trying to work stuff out.

If you just go and play golf and key in your score (and avoid threads like this) it's all fine!

Always stop to smell the flowers!

I have hay fever.

 

[rulie]

It's massively over complicated.....but only if you worry about it, or bother trying to work stuff out.

If you just go and play golf and key in your score (and avoid threads like this) it's all fine!

Always stop to smell the flowers!

I agree - except for the flowers part. That's usually something that those not caring about slow play will use as an excuse.

 

[nickjdavis]

Or at least the App should give Course Handicap as a decimal. I had 3 texts from different golfers this week, asking why their PH was wrong in draw. They were getting 1 less shot than others with same CH seemingly.

I had a golfer i was playing with today say that they have found a "glitch" with the Intelligent Golf app. I asked them to explain and they showed me the app showing their CH as 15 and their PH (95% for a singles strokeplay comp) also as 15. They said it should be 14.

I explained to them that although the app showed a rounded CH, the PH was calculated using an unrounded CH which was likely to be (in their case) around 15.3/15.4. They said they understood but looked dubious about what I'd told them. This wasn't the first person to query what the app was telling them and it wont be the last.

The club has clearly communicated this information previously, and advised players that the app might show information that on the surface might appear incorrect, but in reality is accurate.

Committees can only do so much. Club members need to take on board the information that is fed to them, rather than being simply "disinterested".

But yes...it would make perfect sense for the app to show CH as an unrounded value...it would clear up so much confusion.

 

[Swango1980]

I had a golfer i was playing with today say that they have found a "glitch" with the Intelligent Golf app. I asked them to explain and they showed me the app showing their CH as 15 and their PH (95% for a singles strokeplay comp) also as 15. They said it should be 14.

I explained to them that although the app showed a rounded CH, the PH was calculated using an unrounded CH which was likely to be (in their case) around 15.3/15.4. They said they understood but looked dubious about what I'd told them. This wasn't the first person to query what the app was telling them and it wont be the last.

The club has clearly communicated this information previously, and advised players that the app might show information that on the surface might appear incorrect, but in reality is accurate.

Committees can only do so much. Club members need to take on board the information that is fed to them, rather than being simply "disinterested".

But yes...it would make perfect sense for the app to show CH as an unrounded value...it would clear up so much confusion.

Regarding the last couple of paragraphs, I agree.

However, many of the educated in here, and the authorities themselves, have continually explained that WHS is not confusing, because your average golfer has nothing to think about. Just go out, play golf and the computer will do the rest.

And so, that is what many will do. But, when the computer then visually appears to be getting things wrong, it is difficult for many to have trust in it. Especially when it starts doing different things to what it had done for the last few years.

 

[IanM]

I agree - except for the flowers part. That's usually something that those not caring about slow play will use as an excuse.

Or, it's something to do while the wombats in front are chatting/aimpointing/plumb bobbing etc etc etc

 

[tobybarker]

Maybe it should be renamed to "Playing handicap at 100%" and should be displayed with something called "Unrounded course handicap" although a sexier name for the latter would be better.c

I had a golfer i was playing with today say that they have found a "glitch" with the Intelligent Golf app. I asked them to explain and they showed me the app showing their CH as 15 and their PH (95% for a singles strokeplay comp) also as 15. They said it should be 14.

I explained to them that although the app showed a rounded CH, the PH was calculated using an unrounded CH which was likely to be (in their case) around 15.3/15.4. They said they understood but looked dubious about what I'd told them. This wasn't the first person to query what the app was telling them and it wont be the last.

The club has clearly communicated this information previously, and advised players that the app might show information that on the surface might appear incorrect, but in reality is accurate.

Committees can only do so much. Club members need to take on board the information that is fed to them, rather than being simply "disinterested".

But yes...it would make perfect sense for the app to show CH as an unrounded value...it would clear up so much confusion.

Couldn't agree more... Just show CH as a decimal. lazy programming

 

[rulie]

I had a golfer i was playing with today say that they have found a "glitch" with the Intelligent Golf app. I asked them to explain and they showed me the app showing their CH as 15 and their PH (95% for a singles strokeplay comp) also as 15. They said it should be 14.
I explained to them that although the app showed a rounded CH, the PH was calculated using an unrounded CH which was likely to be (in their case) around 15.3/15.4. They said they understood but looked dubious about what I'd told them. This wasn't the first person to query what the app was telling them and it wont be the last.
The club has clearly communicated this information previously, and advised players that the app might show information that on the surface might appear incorrect, but in reality is accurate.

Is it "accurate" or "precise"?
Remember "perfection is the enemy of good". When scores are integers and course ratings are only one decimal place, calculating something from them to the umpteenth decimal place is, imo, pointless.

 

[Alan Clifford]

Is it "accurate" or "precise"?
Remember "perfection is the enemy of good". When scores are integers and course ratings are only one decimal place, calculating something from them to the umpteenth decimal place is, imo, pointless.

There's 113/something in there. So really, differentials should be stored "to machine precision" even though the rules say otherwise. And then there is a divide by 113 so it makes sense to use "machine precision". Except, because of the rounding of differentials and then rounding of the average of the differentials, the "machine precise" course handicap is not accurate at all.

 

[wjemather]

Couldn't agree more... Just show CH as a decimal. lazy programming

Programming has nothing to do with it.

 

[IanM]

Programming has nothing to do with it.

What was it then?

Genuine question, although, I'm expecting many of the regular old chestnuts of project management foul ups to be on offer

My money is on, "it was left as "whole numbers" to simplify it, not realising the calculators would come out before the ink dried on the final invoice!"

 

[rulie]

It should be about "significant figures". Scores are integers, course rating has one decimal place. The "machine precision" being used in the calculations of CH and PH have, imo, several "insignificant figures" and doesn't improve the accuracy. Again, imo, it's a mug's game. It certainly adds confusion to something that should be straightforward.

• The result of an addition and/or subtraction operation is reported to the same number of decimal places as that in the term with the least number of decimal places (so the number of decimal places in the calculation terms limit the significant figures in your final result).
• The result of a multiplication and/or division operation is rounded off to the same number of significant figures as possessed by the least precise value in the calculation (here you count the number of significant digits in each value in the calculation and this limits the number of significant figures in your final result.)

 

[Voyager EMH]

It would be easier for everyone to deal with if we had no Course Handicap as the Australians do.

Before WHS we had a handicap that we played off in medals and stablefords.
If we had built-in the 95% into the calculation of our new handicaps, there would have been an easy to understand transition.
But many people latched on to a notion of their Course Handicap as a handicap that they "play off". This is a misconception, in my view.
Handicaps exist so that we can play with and against each other. We do that with the correct Playing Handicap for the format of play.
Forget Course Handicap. It is merely a step on the way to the calculation of the handicap that you will be "playing off".

Anyway, all this will be sorted (or not) in the 2029 changes.