WHS doesn't work

[Steve Wilkes]

I think its coming down to a few things:

One great round doesn't cut you as much as it used to. All these exceptional rounds now do is amend someone's handicap by a shot or two. Before, if you played well under you'd be in for a much bigger cut from the mid 20's and it would take time to go back up. I witnessed a 22 handicapper shoot 51 points the other week. He played off 13 a year ago. Made me feel sick.

There must be a reason for this, with the caps or he has really suffered playing really bad for more than a year. I'm the opposite, I'm happy for him

 

[wjemather]

https://www.howdidido.com/My/Result?sectionId=4631&compNumber=102353
https://www.howdidido.com/My/Result?sectionId=4631&compNumber=102351
https://www.howdidido.com/My/Result?sectionId=4631&compNumber=102280

Someone tell me WHS is not broken at my club after seeing results like these almost weekly

Seems like it's scoring expectations that are the real issue. With a Course Rating of 67.1, those medal scores are not particularly exceptional. And PCC was -1 for the Stableford.

That being said, your course does seem to have a PCC of -1 more often than might be expected, so there maybe something not quite as it should be (course setup or ratings) or it could just be the dry weather has made the course easier to score. Anyway, even if there is something amiss, it isn't WHS that is broken.

 

[Banchory Buddha]

It would be interesting if posters complaining about high cappers winning would also show the CONGU handicap the player had before conversion. In correspondence with EG I am told that virtually all conversions were within one (or two at most). There were of course some exceptions. Slope of course will have had an effect on high cappers playing handicap.

This. Yes the high guys got a couple shots onto their index, but then you had some more for the playing handicap adjustment as well.

 

[rulefan]

I can't remember, it was over two years ago.

I think it was only 0.1 per Category.

 

[Banchory Buddha]

There must be a reason for this, with the caps or he has really suffered playing really bad for more than a year. I'm the opposite, I'm happy for him

The hard cap would kick in, you cant go up 9 shots in a year

 

[rulefan]

See I think this is where our biggest issue is, were rated as if its a tough track - or at least tougher than it is. I think players should play off their index's pretty much, and not gain shots at our place - but the guys around 20 are gaining 2!

That's probably because the slope says the course is 2 strokes more difficult for the bogey player.
PS. Do you understand how slope works and that CONGU was virtually the only place in the world where it wasn't used.

 

[Bdill93]

How many shots for one good round?

Was it not 0.3 or 0.4 per shot under handicap for a cat 3 golfer?

 

[Bdill93]

That's probably because the slope says the course is 2 strokes more difficult for the bogey player.
PS. Do you understand how slope works and that CONGU was virtually the only place in the world where it wasn't used.

Yeah I get it - and I'm telling you that its rated wrong. There is 1 hole (7th SI 1) that a bogey player has to lay up for on our course - every other hole plays exactly the same.

The course up the road - Gaudet Luce - is rated almost identically to our course and its far harder. Every par 3 is 30 yards longer, more par 5's, insanely long uphill par 4's and rated the same? Joke!

 

[Slab]

Yeah I get it - and I'm telling you that its rated wrong. There is 1 hole (7th SI 1) that a bogey player has to lay up for on our course - every other hole plays exactly the same.

The course up the road - Gaudet Luce - is rated almost identically to our course and its far harder. Every par 3 is 30 yards longer, more par 5's, insanely long uphill par 4's and rated the same? Joke!

Can I ask what the slope rating is for your course ? (sorry if its been mentioned)

 

[Orikoru]

I think it was only 0.1 per Category.

I think he was off 13 and shot 75 on a par 68! So either 1.2 cut or 1.8 cut, can't remember if it was 0.2 or 0.3 per shot at that level. And what @Bdill93 said earlier was right, new system he'd have probably only been cut 0.3 in total.

 

[Bdill93]

Can I ask what the slope rating is for your course ? (sorry if its been mentioned)

https://ravenmeadow.members-section...19/RGC Slope Table For WHS Handicap Index.pdf

 

[wjemather]

Yeah I get it - and I'm telling you that its rated wrong. There is 1 hole (7th SI 1) that a bogey player has to lay up for on our course - every other hole plays exactly the same.

The course up the road - Gaudet Luce - is rated almost identically to our course and its far harder. Every par 3 is 30 yards longer, more par 5's, insanely long uphill par 4's and rated the same? Joke!

Gaudet Luce has a Course Rating of 69.2 (2.1 higher than yours) and Slope of 124 (2 higher), with a par of 70 (1 higher) - not really seeing anything the same.

 

[Bdill93]

Gaudet Luce has a Course Rating of 69.2 (2.1 higher than yours) and Slope of 124 (2 higher), with a par of 70 (1 higher) - not really seeing anything the same.

But their members gain a similar amount of shots, the calculations flow through as similar. I'm not saying the course isn't harder - it is! I still gain a shot there, 20+ guys gain 2...

Same at our place

But its harder there than at mine!

I'm looking for help not to be proved wrong Please go ahead and tell me why we get scores of 45+ on the regular and a net 61 isn't a guaranteed comp win? I'm all ears...

 

[wjemather]

But their members gain a similar amount of shots, the calculations flow through as similar. I'm not saying the course isn't harder - it is! I still gain a shot there, 20+ guys gain 2...

Same at our place

But its harder there than at mine!

I'm looking for help not to be proved wrong

Course Handicaps are only calculated based on the Slope, do differences in actual course difficulty are not readily apparent. To assess that, you need to look at the difference in Course Ratings. and there you can see that GL is 2.1 strokes more difficult than RP for a scratch golfer - taking into account the Slope, that difference increases for higher handicaps. In terms of Stableford, 'play-to-handicap' score (i.e. using Course Handicaps, not Playing Handicaps) at GL is 37 points, at RP it is 38.

 

[jim8flog]

It‘s not a different system for different players?‍, I just happen to believe there is more value in a card from a competition when the course is set up properly, and cards are being scrutinised. It’s a personal opinion that people who are regularly playing competitions don’t need general play cards.

I am not sure what UHS is but before WHS I never met anyone who submitted supplementary cards other than to meet the 3 cards a year requirement or get an initial handicap.

UHS = Unified Handicapping System

As part of the handicap committee we encouraged and had loads submitted under the Supplementary Card system under the UHS. At the the WHS briefings from England Golf we were told to do this and we had quite a number already doing this. The rules were changed long before the WHS came in so players could submit as many as they wanted (except for Cat 1 golfers).

 

[Bdill93]

Course Handicaps are only calculated based on the Slope, do differences in actual course difficulty are not readily apparent. To assess that, you need to look at the difference in Course Ratings. and there you can see that GL is 2.1 strokes more difficult than RP for a scratch golfer - taking into account the Slope, that difference increases for higher handicaps.

And I'm saying that for a bogey golfer, that isn't accurate at my club. If you just walked, not even played both courses, you'd know exactly what I mean.

Its noticeable in club matches too, our club get battered almost every time we play another golf club - their 15/16 handicappers are like our 12's/10's in ability.

 

[Slab]

But their members gain a similar amount of shots, the calculations flow through as similar. I'm not saying the course isn't harder - it is! I still gain a shot there, 20+ guys gain 2...

Same at our place

But its harder there than at mine!

I'm looking for help not to be proved wrong Please go ahead and tell me why we get scores of 45+ on the regular and a net 61 isn't a guaranteed comp win? I'm all ears...

That does seem a weird slope

I really cant fathom out these ratings (I know the fault is my own) I’m not criticising your course at all but that looks like off my WHS HI (15.6) I’d play your whites off 17 that’s mental looking at the website, scorecard etc (unless that stream I see is lava filled and there’s Orcs firing arrows at me from the bushes on the back 9)
To find the closest rating. If I play our senior tees (I know that’s not their real name) rated at 68.6/122 WHS has me playing off 13 and its still 500 yards longer than your whites

I realise I’m way oversimplifying the whole process but that does not seem like a ‘world’ handicapping system at work. I can only imagine your course has some hidden challenges to get that rating but you reckon its pretty straightforward

 

[Bdill93]

That does seem a weird slope

I really cant fathom out these ratings (I know the fault is my own) I’m not criticising your course at all but that looks like off my WHS HI (15.6) I’d play your whites off 17 that’s mental looking at the website, scorecard etc (unless that stream I see is lava filled and there’s Orcs firing arrows at me from the bushes on the back 9)
To find the closest rating. If I play our senior tees (I know that’s not their real name) rated at 68.6/122 WHS has me playing off 13 and its still 500 yards longer than your whites

I realise I’m way oversimplifying the whole process but that does not seem like a ‘world’ handicapping system at work. I can only imagine your course has some hidden challenges to get that rating but you reckon its pretty straightforward

Im telling you it is.

The stream isnt wide, maybe 2/3m at its widest, comes in to play on 4th OOB right, 6th - 120 yard carry, 7th - 190 yard carry, 8th 30 yard carry - and the 18th which is a whopping (not) 240 yard par 4 that I've eagled multiple times...

I know the limitations of my track - its cheaper than anyone else club on here I bet by a landslide though! Its a lovely place to have started playing golf at - but as you clearly show, the way its been rated is absurd. It should be in the negative of slope

 

[Slab]

Im telling you it is.

The stream isnt wide, maybe 2/3m at its widest, comes in to play on 4th OOB right, 6th - 120 yard carry, 7th - 190 yard carry, 8th 30 yard carry - and the 18th which is a whopping (not) 240 yard par 4 that I've eagled multiple times...

I know the limitations of my track - its cheaper than anyone else club on here I bet by a landslide though! Its a lovely place to have started playing golf at - but as you clearly show, the way its been rated is absurd. It should be in the negative of slope

Yup I gotta agree with you, something does not add up at your place

I just checked another course here I played last weekend again with HI of 15.6 at a course rated 70.1/127 and had to play off 16 course handicap off tees measuring 6,300 yards and tough enough to be used as a European tour venue

It simply doesn't make sense that I can come to your place and be given an extra shot with a CH of 17 at fully 800 yards shorter and by all accounts an easier course

 

[wjemather]

That does seem a weird slope

I really cant fathom out these ratings (I know the fault is my own) I’m not criticising your course at all but that looks like off my WHS HI (15.6) I’d play your whites off 17 that’s mental looking at the website, scorecard etc (unless that stream I see is lava filled and there’s Orcs firing arrows at me from the bushes on the back 9)
To find the closest rating. If I play our senior tees (I know that’s not their real name) rated at 68.6/122 WHS has me playing off 13 and its still 500 yards longer than your whites

I realise I’m way oversimplifying the whole process but that does not seem like a ‘world’ handicapping system at work. I can only imagine your course has some hidden challenges to get that rating but you reckon its pretty straightforward

MC is a stroke and a half more difficult than RP (CR of 68.6 versus CR of 67.1), but this does not show up in Course Handicap calculations (regardless of method is used) as its sole purpose is to level the playing field with respect to the relative difficulty of the course, not reflect differences in actual/absolute difficulty.

You are also using two different Course Handicap calculation methods - the CONGU calculation does not account for the difference in CR and Par, whereas the Mauritius calculation does.

RP (white): CR 67.1 Slope 122 Par 69
MC (blue): CR 68.6 Slope 122 Par 72

CONGU method - both CH are 17.
RoW method - CH at RP is 15, CH at MC is 13 - this simply reflects the difference between Course Rating and Par (1.9 at RP and 3.4 at MC).