WHS and Supplementary Scores in 2020

[mikejohnchapman]

I appreciate that come the glorious revolution all scores will we treated equally However, I was asked by our Handcap Committee what advice they should be passing on during this playing season.

Other than general education etc. I suggested they should be encouraging members to play in as many qualifying competitions as possible during the season to ensure their new Handicap Index will be calculated on the best information available. I was asked if it was worth encouraging people to submit supplementary scores (not Cat 1 players) and if these would count in the new calculation of HI.

I wasn't sure - does anyone know?

 

[jim8flog]

All supplementary scores count towards a Handicap and form part of players handicap record and will therefore be used for WHS purposes.

When we have the presentation one of the questions I will be asking is if the restriction on CAT 1 players will be lifted.

 

[duncan mackie]

Yes they will - in the same way as every other Q score.

The more current scores on your handicap record the more reflective your initial handicap index allocation will be.

Simples

 

[Jimbof]

All supplementary scores count towards a Handicap and form part of players handicap record and will therefore be used for WHS purposes.

When we have the presentation one of the questions I will be asking is if the restriction on CAT 1 players will be lifted.

Regarding the question about Cat 1 players, as there will be no categories under WHS, then there will be no restrictions for anyone.

 

[duncan mackie]

Regarding the question about Cat 1 players, as there will be no categories under WHS, then there will be no restrictions for anyone.

I believe Jim is referencing 2020 scores prior to the implementation of WHS.

 

[jim8flog]

Regarding the question about Cat 1 players, as there will be no categories under WHS, then there will be no restrictions for anyone.

I believe Jim is referencing 2020 scores prior to the implementation of WHS.

Duncan is correct.

My concern is that I know there are several Cat 1 players where I play that really do not put in enough qualifying comp scores to be properly initially assessed under the WHS.

 

[rulefan]

My understanding (not yet confirmed though) is that the current CONGU rule will apply to cat 1 play until November.
But if they have fewer than required for 8/20 they will be flagged for manual intervention

 

[patricks148]

when it changes i think i'm going to try and put in as many cards as i can and not just rely on comps

 

[rulefan]

when it changes i think i'm going to try and put in as many cards as i can and not just rely on comps

Remember, they will have to be declared and marked in the same way as Supplementary Scores.

 

[patricks148]

Remember, they will have to be declared and marked in the same way as Supplementary Scores.

no sheer hite sherlock , i was think of only putting the good ones in

 

[rulefan]

no sheer hite sherlock , i was think of only putting the good ones in

If you do that you'll never win any open betterballs

 

[Swango1980]

Another question(s) relating to Supplementary Scores:

Under CONGU:
If a player submits a supplementary score at your club, but there is no evidence that they pre-registered, what action would be taken? Presumably, you could disregard the score? Example, a player goes out, shoots 48 points, then decides to put the card in because it happened to be a good round (or others twisted his arm to submit the card). There would be good grounds NOT to accept that score?

Under WHS:
Same thing, a social round is submitted for handicapping, but no evidence the round was pre-registered? In this case, I don't think we can now refuse the score, and the handicap will have changed anyway (or at least the handicap record) the day after the score was submitted. So, what actions are Committees thinking of taking in this case? I guess we need to look at some sort of disciplinary sanctions, whilst not appearing to be overly zealous to our club members. For example, it may well be decided a golfer was manipulating handicap, and you might even be able to suspend handicap. But, in most cases of this happening, golfers may have simply forgotten to sign in. Even in club comps, players are meant to sign in before they go out on PSI, but probably an average of 2-3 players every comp forget. Different players all the time. No big deal, as we know who played anyway as the Committee are always present at the start times.

BTW, no doubt I will create a separate thread at some later point in relation to No Returns (and whether a player walks off before or after 9 holes have been played) and Penalty Scores under WHS. I need some more time to get my head around this, but I anticipate I'll have questions.

 

[Jimbof]

Under both situations the score is unacceptable for handicapping and, if it has been submitted and processed under WHS, it must be removed.

 

[Swango1980]

Under both situations the score is unacceptable for handicapping and, if it has been submitted and processed under WHS, it must be removed.

Thanks Jim.

This is an interesting point of view (or correct procedure), for WHS. Before removing the score (which might be done several days after entered), you could have had a player playing in competitions off a wrong handicap. I can imagine, player submits score Saturday, goes up 1 shot, wins comp on Sunday on countback, no change to handicap on Monday, then his Saturday score is removed later in week as he didn't pre-register, and his handicap goes back down to what it was before competition. Not sure how we would deal with that, or justify it to the runner up in the competition, but I guess this is another matter.

I think the fact you say the score must be disregarded under WHS also confuses me, based on what England Golf have told me directly regarding a slightly different matter. For example, if a general round scorecard was NOT submitted (no return), but the round pre-registered, then I would need to find out reason for no return. If there was a genuine reason (such as player falling ill), only then can I disregard score. Otherwise, even without the card, I will need to find another means to find out the score. Well, presumably the fact that if they digitally entered it on PSI, that would be a way of finding out the score without card, and must be an acceptable score.

So, I struggle to see that, if a player does not pre-register a round (but everything else done by the book) we need to delete that entry, yet if a player pre-registers and enters a score via PSI, but doesn't then submit a scorecard, then that score MUST stand? It seems to be a contradiction I guess. Player doesn't pre-register, therefore incorrect procedure, score deleted from handicap record. Player doesn't submit scorecard, therefore incorrect procedure, score NOT deleted from handicap record?

 

[jim8flog]

For example, if a general round scorecard was NOT submitted (no return), but the round pre-registered, then I would need to find out reason for no return. If there was a genuine reason (such as player falling ill), only then can I disregard score. Otherwise, even without the card, I will need to find another means to find out the score. Well, presumably the fact that if they digitally entered it on PSI, that would be a way of finding out the score without card, and must be an acceptable score.

Assuming that they did not return the card and did not enter the score on the PSI would that mean that the penalty score process would come in to effect? At the present moment that scenario is 0.1 increase.

 

[Swango1980]

Assuming that they did not return the card and did not enter the score on the PSI would that mean that the penalty score process would come in to effect? At the present moment that scenario is 0.1 increase.

Yes. The advice is:

Find out reason for no return
If valid reason given, do not enter score
If no valid reason, find out the score and enter. If no score available, enter a penalty score

 

[jim8flog]

Yes. The advice is:

Find out reason for no return

It is this reason that gives me cause for concern.

We are a club of over 800 members and I would expect to see a large increase of SS scores at least prior to the the WHS coming in to force.

Our office staff really do not have the time to chasing round members for what some might see as simple matters like 'where is your card?' and get it sorted in a reasonable time scale.

I really would like to see the responsibility placed on the player and not the office staff to ensure cards and scores are done correctly.

We have a big enough problem with players not entering scores on the PSI and or returning cards from comps (we have 6 comps a week from the 2 courses)

 

[Swango1980]

It is this reason that gives me cause for concern.

We are a club of over 800 members and I would expect to see a large increase of SS scores at least prior to the the WHS coming in to force.

Our office staff really do not have the time to chasing round members for what some might see as simple matters like 'where is your card?' and get it sorted in a reasonable time scale.

I really would like to see the responsibility placed on the player and not the office staff to ensure cards and scores are done correctly.

We have a big enough problem with players not entering scores on the PSI and or returning cards from comps (we have 6 comps a week from the 2 courses)

Finally, someone that shares my concern. We have no office staff, no pro. Just me as a volunteer (I have a full time job outside golf). So, I am a bit worried about chasing cards. Up to now, player submits card, score goes in. If they do not, but pre register, simply a no return.

Under WHS scores will be returned, but scorecards could be missing. I'd rather not spend time chasing players all week. Sometimes getting hold of 1 player can be hard enough.

I guess we'll just have to wait and see how it works in practice. Maybe it"ll be no big deal in the end. However, if it is, we may get some club committees asking for it to be improved in this respect

 

[Swango1980]

Interesting thought regarding this, would be interested to hear other views.

I asked England Golf about whether scorecards would be absolutely necessary for social rounds for handicapping, with the response being:

"All cards must be returned. That is a Rule of Golf (Rule 3.3b(2)). And if they are not, a penalty score is added for handicapping purposes. (unless the correct score can be found within a reasonable time)."

Although I fully appreciate that the Rules of Golf need to be applied (and can't really pick and choose), I do wonder if this general advice is actually a significant contradiction for social rounds for handicapping. Why? Well, on one hand you are saying a scorecard MUST be submitted. But, on the other hand you are saying that, so long as the correct score can be found (which would presumably be the case if a player had simply typed it into PSI or an App), then the score can still be used for handicapping purposes. Well, the player only played the round for handicapping purposes, and they have no competition to be disqualified from (which is the penalty for not handing in a scorecard). So, in reality, they do not actually need to hand in a scorecard at all. And, as handicap secretary, I am not allowed to delete their score entry, as far as I aware under WHS simply because they didn't hand in the card from the social round.

So, for supplementary cards, especially under WHS if not now, are we simply requesting scorecards because of this Rule, yet know that we don't actually need the card anyway. If so, it isn't very useful, if all it is causing is more filing work for the handicap secretary?

Surely, a player either MUST submit a card for social golf for handicapping, or simply not have to. If they MUST, surely there should be a clear distinction as to how they should be penalised under the Rules of Golf, or the WHS guidelines if they do not submit a scorecard. If the electronic score they entered simply still stands, it doesn't really make sense to me.

Also, I wonder if this is how they get away with it in the USA without the rules breach having any effect. I went onto the USA forums (thanks rulefan for the link), and the replies are basically:

• Scorecards do not need to be submitted, players just enter own score
• Scores public information, so peers can review your scores

One chap said he plays no competitions, submits about 75 scores a year from about 80 rounds, submits no scorecards to anyone nor retain any cards (the scorecard for their group often left on the table of the 19th hole) and he does not think that this is unusual for most golfers in USA. So, question is, if golfers in UK did this once WHS is in play, what would happen? Do we simply accept the scores regardless, or will it be up to individual clubs, where you might start banning players or suspending their handicaps (knowing that it would be very subjective, and you might lose players from club if they think they can go to another club and not get any sanctions)?

 

[rulefan]

Given that the owners of WHS also own the RoG and anticipate the use of electronic devices for score recording, I expect to see a corresponding change to the RoG sooner rather than later.
However, the CONGU Regulations currently require that Supplementary Score rounds must be played under The Rules of Golf. Regardless of what may or may not be happening elsewhere.