Whos to blame?

[HomerJSimpson]

I have to say in my opinion, Capello seemed to have lost the changing room and the players didn't want to play for him. Personaly I think the players had a duty to perform and most didn't come close to doing so. Its strange how we breezed through qualifying and then turn up as if we didn't know each other. Clearly there are personal issues within the camp between players and also betweein players and management.

I think Capello will have to go and either Redknapp or Hodgson will get the job. Whether having an Englishman in charge will help is open for debate but I think you'll see a lot of new players bloodied in friendlies and then given run outs as subs in qualifiers and a rebuild before (if) we get to the next Euros

 

[AuburnWarrior]

Apparently (and that's a BIG apparently), Gerrard won a gagging order for the duration of the world cup and for two weeks afterwards preventing the press from reporting that he got Alex's (his Wife's) Sister pregnant.

John Terry found out about this during the campaign and demanded that Capello strip Gerrard of the captaincy. Obviously, Capello couldn't do that as it would have raised far too many questions so he left Gerrard as the Captain. Terry was incensed - hence his 'outburst' press conference.

Apparently, Terry and Gerrard hate each other.

Apparently, the story is due to run the week after next.

I can't vouch for it's authenticity...

 

[sawtooth]

Patently obvious that the players are not as good as we like to think they are. Sure the EPL is great and "English" clubs do well in the UCL most years. However how English is our league? I reckon we have less than 30% English players in the EPL and I guess the percentage in other countries especially South America is far higher. From a reasonably large population we have a pityful amount of English players playing regularly at the highest level. Capello is a class act its certainly not his fault. In my honest opinion he did the best with what he had.

The manager needs better raw materials to do the job with and that means finding good young players and giving them a chance in the EPL. Also bring in wage capping so it means more to play for the country. How many of this squad would have burst into tears like Gascoigne in 1990?

 

[Spinn77]

How many players that have not been seledcted so far are worthy of a chance though?

There is A Johnson from ManCity.
Everton have ROdwell who looks like great player in the making
Arsenal have Wiltshire and Walcott i guess. the young left bak looks like a fairly good long term replacement for A Cole - Gibbs that is, i was disapointed he got injured this year.
Hart to go in goal, perhaps backed up by the Ex Man utd player who just went to Birmingham.


after that lot, all i can see is Dawson, the fulham striker and to be honest its not really very much depth. Its worrying. The FA need to start listening to people like Howard Wilkinson, Trevor Brooking and Chris Waddle (i know, but he talks a load of sense).

Most of the current side will keep there place whoever is in charge next year.

As for Gerrard, i heard it was some 16 year old! And, the squad was fed up with Terry after the Bridge affair that seems to have been forgotten

 

[Kellfire]

Apparently (and that's a BIG apparently), Gerrard won a gagging order for the duration of the world cup and for two weeks afterwards preventing the press from reporting that he got Alex's (his Wife's) Sister pregnant.

Alex Curran doesn't have a sister. Also heard this rumour.

Some real nonsense being talked on here. Rooney not world class? Gerrard not world class? (ok, he just had a bad season but come no) Terry not world class? Lampard not world class?

 

[Dodger]

Terry and Lampard are not world class end of and that was blatently obvious over the last 2 weeks.

Does hoying yourself infront of the ball 20 times a game make you world class now?Does having 20 shots a game with 2 on target make you world class now?

If so there are a few of the guys I have played North Northumberland League with are in need of a call.

 

[Kellfire]

Terry and Lampard are not world class end of and that was blatently obvious over the last 2 weeks.

Does hoying yourself infront of the ball 20 times a game make you world class now?Does having 20 shots a game with 2 on target make you world class now?

If so there are a few of the guys I have played North Northumberland League with are in need of a call.

What you do over a couple of games in a World Cup doesn't undo what you've done for years at the highest level, the Champions League.

 

[JustOne]

I think Capello will have to go and either Redknapp or Hodgson will get the job.

Hodgson is a knob. Redknapp would be an excellent choice, probably the only person who wouldn't put up crappy smokescreens.

 

[Kellfire]

Hodgson's a knob? How so? Seems like a smart, articulate man who says it as it is. Not the best manager in the world but, unlike Capello, is good at getting the most of what he has. He's going to Liverpool though.

Redknapp's forte is dodging, dealing and getting teams out of predicaments. Not sure if England would suit him.

 

[toonarmy]

Some real nonsense being talked on here. Rooney not world class? Gerrard not world class? (ok, he just had a bad season but come no) Terry not world class? Lampard not world class?

By, I've seen some nonsense but you my lad are taking the digestive.

With the exception of Rooney who is clearly not fully fit from an ankle injury (and believe me, that will screw your first touch up a treat), when was the last time you saw an England game where the other 3 you mention made you think 'wow, they're world class'?

The cold and hard truth that so many seem to struggle with is that nearly all of the England players simply are at best decent. In fact, the phrase 'flat-track bully' could almost have been invented for all of them.

And don't give me the 'but they're brilliant for their clubs' line as it is a) totally irrelevant and b) disingenuous on the grounds that they clearly have far better technical players from abroad around them.

Being good at club level is meaningless. Fowler was clearly excellent at club level but simply couldn't cut it at International level. All team sports have players that under/over perform at International level in relation to their club level.

This idea that the manager is to blame, that he has 'lost' the dressing room is garbage. The dressing room nonsense is put out by players unable to countenance the idea that actually they were just a bit shite.

In rugby terms, you are told repeatedly 'play what's in front of you'. It has been the major failing of England rugby over the last few years in that they are incapable of responding to what is in front of them and instead keep playing to prescribed plans. The point is, regardless of what the coach has drilled into you, as an International sportsman, you must be able to respond to what is happening and take ownership.

If the England players were anywhere near as good as you imply, then Lionheart John Terry (TM) would have been able to say 'let's not stick 9 in their box with 20m to go, they're quite quick on the break' or 'Matty, let's pretend we're playing on the same pitch'. Fat Frank might have been able to say 'hold on, why is there a 40yd gap between me and Barry?' or 'maybe I should do something about their midfield overwhelming us'. Maybe Gerrard might have thought 'maybe I should play in the position I've been asked to play in rather than constantly vacating it and eliminating any benefit we get from that world-class left-back we have'.

I could go on, but I don't need to.

The current England squad have provided stacks of empirical evidence to support the case that they are not good enough at International level. Consequently, it is hoped that the England manager (and God help us, let it continue to be Capello for all our sakes) will begin a process of starting from scratch.

If you need a telling statement that underlines everything that is wrong with the current crop of players' mentality, I give you self-appointed 'professor' Fat Frank's comments:

"I'm not going to stop playing International football, I'm going to carry on".

Frank, dearest, you don't get to decide. What you should have said was:

"Obviously it is not up to me if I play for England again. I will do everything I can to play my way into the team and hopefully I will be good enough to be picked. If not, then all I can do is keep trying to be good enough."

But that level of humility is beyond most of them and their sense of entitlement pervades everything they do, including how they play on the pitch for England.

Until we stop telling 10yr olds to play on full size pitches and 'clear it', stop applauding forwards sprinting back 50yds to make tackles in their own half, and stop teaching them from an early age to hoof it to the big kid up front we will continue to struggle.

Sad, but true.

Here endeth the lesson.

 

[19th]

Some real nonsense being talked on here. Rooney not world class? Gerrard not world class? (ok, he just had a bad season but come no) Terry not world class? Lampard not world class?

By, I've seen some nonsense but you my lad are taking the digestive.

With the exception of Rooney who is clearly not fully fit from an ankle injury (and believe me, that will screw your first touch up a treat), when was the last time you saw an England game where the other 3 you mention made you think 'wow, they're world class'?

The cold and hard truth that so many seem to struggle with is that nearly all of the England players simply are at best decent. In fact, the phrase 'flat-track bully' could almost have been invented for all of them.

And don't give me the 'but they're brilliant for their clubs' line as it is a) totally irrelevant and b) disingenuous on the grounds that they clearly have far better technical players from abroad around them.

Being good at club level is meaningless. Fowler was clearly excellent at club level but simply couldn't cut it at International level. All team sports have players that under/over perform at International level in relation to their club level.

This idea that the manager is to blame, that he has 'lost' the dressing room is garbage. The dressing room nonsense is put out by players unable to countenance the idea that actually they were just a bit shite.

In rugby terms, you are told repeatedly 'play what's in front of you'. It has been the major failing of England rugby over the last few years in that they are incapable of responding to what is in front of them and instead keep playing to prescribed plans. The point is, regardless of what the coach has drilled into you, as an International sportsman, you must be able to respond to what is happening and take ownership.

If the England players were anywhere near as good as you imply, then Lionheart John Terry (TM) would have been able to say 'let's not stick 9 in their box with 20m to go, they're quite quick on the break' or 'Matty, let's pretend we're playing on the same pitch'. Fat Frank might have been able to say 'hold on, why is there a 40yd gap between me and Barry?' or 'maybe I should do something about their midfield overwhelming us'. Maybe Gerrard might have thought 'maybe I should play in the position I've been asked to play in rather than constantly vacating it and eliminating any benefit we get from that world-class left-back we have'.

I could go on, but I don't need to.

The current England squad have provided stacks of empirical evidence to support the case that they are not good enough at International level. Consequently, it is hoped that the England manager (and God help us, let it continue to be Capello for all our sakes) will begin a process of starting from scratch.

If you need a telling statement that underlines everything that is wrong with the current crop of players' mentality, I give you self-appointed 'professor' Fat Frank's comments:

"I'm not going to stop playing International football, I'm going to carry on".

Frank, dearest, you don't get to decide. What you should have said was:

"Obviously it is not up to me if I play for England again. I will do everything I can to play my way into the team and hopefully I will be good enough to be picked. If not, then all I can do is keep trying to be good enough."

But that level of humility is beyond most of them and their sense of entitlement pervades everything they do, including how they play on the pitch for England.

Until we stop telling 10yr olds to play on full size pitches and 'clear it', stop applauding forwards sprinting back 50yds to make tackles in their own half, and stop teaching them from an early age to hoof it to the big kid up front we will continue to struggle.

Sad, but true.

Here endeth the lesson.

Being a Jock, my opinion does not count really ..but..if Terry had been sent home I think it would have given the squad a better chance to gel and enhance the managers standing.

Anyway the above offering, accepting the content or not, must be one of the best I have seen on any thread.

 

[Kellfire]

And don't give me the 'but they're brilliant for their clubs' line as it is a) totally irrelevant and b) disingenuous on the grounds that they clearly have far better technical players from abroad around them.

Being good at club level is meaningless. Fowler was clearly excellent at club level but simply couldn't cut it at International level. All team sports have players that under/over perform at International level in relation to their club level.

toonarmy,

Like I said, playing badly in the WC does not show that you're not World Class, just as doing well in it doesn't show that you are.

Terry, Lampary and Gerrard have all shown their ability over many seasons in the Champions League and the Premier League. The CL is the pinnacle of football in Europe.

A few games in a team you haven't gelled with, in a system that doesn't suit you and playing for a manager who doesn't understand what it is that has got you to the top of the game is not the time to judge anyone.

You can't just dismiss my points because they don't suit your argument.

Would the likes of Kevin Prince Boateng make it at a top Champions League club?

Of course he wouldn't, but he can make a mark in a World Cup where the standard is lower, especially in the early stages.

Don't get me wrong, England didn't inspire and played very badly but did they really do much worse than the sum of their parts would suggest they'd have done? I'm not convinced. They have world class players. They also have a lot who shouldn't be near the team - James, Green, G Johnson, Carragher, Upson, Heskey...

 

[Robobum]

Starting from scratch is a fanciful ideal (probably a good one mind you), but how is that going to work in practice??

The way our country differs from the more "technically gifted" countries is that we don't have a "coaching culture" across the board when kids start playing.

Coaching in this country is pretty expensive, time consuming, and unless used in the right enviroment not well received.

Anyone got any coaching qualifications for football on here?? A coaching badge which does little more than say you aren't on the sex offenders register will set you back about £100. The first "worthwhile" qualification will hit you for at least £400 plus at least a week off work. Why would anyone want to start splashing money like that when all they want to do is run Nowheresville Utd for the local kids?

IMO, coaching should become much more inclusive. Free coach the coaches sessions should be widely available through regional FAs. Anyone with a vested interest in football, parents, teachers, supporters, coaches can attend and learn the basics. This will change the mind sets of the mums and dads that scream at little Johnny every Sunday morning in the local teams.

The trouble is that a kid with any shred of talent is snapped up at a ridiculously early age and fed into a Pro clubs system. The Pro clubs work on a saturation theory, get in 100 kids with the hope that 1 or 2 might progress, cheaper than buying in everyone at £30m+. This leaves the "less gifted" kids to kick about amongst themselves run by a "less gifted" (but probably well menaing) coach.

Trouble is a "root and branch" overhaul of the FA would probably mean getting a couple more heavy hitters in on the board!!

 

[toonarmy]

Like I said, playing badly in the WC does not show that you're not World Class, just as doing well in it doesn't show that you are.

You miss my point. They have not played 'world class' football for England in 2010, 2008, 2006, 2004, 2002...

Terry, Lampary and Gerrard have all shown their ability over many seasons in the Champions League and the Premier League.

In sides with technically and professionally superior foreigners in them, as I said earlier.

A few games in a team you haven't gelled with, in a system that doesn't suit you and playing for a manager who doesn't understand what it is that has got you to the top of the game is not the time to judge anyone.

To dismiss Capello's knowledge like that is bordering on plain stupid. Quality professionals adapt to their environment. The other teams can manage it, why not England?

Don't get me wrong, England didn't inspire and played very badly but did they really do much worse than the sum of their parts would suggest they'd have done? I'm not convinced. They have world class players.

Considering you are suggesting that England have plenty of world-class players, then yes their play was well below the sum of their parts. Need I remind you that the only team they managed to outplay was Slovenia and were beaten in all areas by the USA, Algeria (thankfully no strikeforce to speak of) and Germany? Not to mention being out-classed by Mexico and Japan in the warm-ups (regardless of the results).

England *think* they have world class players, largely because the likes of Sky and idiotic pundits (ex-footballers it is worth noting) keep telling us/them that they are.

They are not. Ashley Cole and possibly (a fit) Rooney fit into that category. The rest are just decent/good players who, unlike say the Germans, manage to play worse collectively, not better.

 

[Kellfire]

In sides with technically and professionally superior foreigners in them, as I said earlier.

Well yes, playing with better players will generally also bring the best out of world class players.

Rooney wasn't along side Heskey and Defoe, maybe it dragged him down.

Lampard wasn't alongside Barry, he had to sit deeper to assist in the system than he would at Chelsea.

Terry wasn't alongside Upson or Carragher, the amount of covering he was doing for Upson was criminal and he was dragged all over because of Upson's naivete.

To dismiss Capello's knowledge like that is bordering on plain stupid. Quality professionals adapt to their environment. The other teams can manage it, why not England?

The best English players (Rooney, Lampard, Gerrard) all play week in, week out in a system that employs one striker, five midfielders. The players available to Capello were suited for it. Capello refused to do this. Somehow I think England would have gone 4-5-1 if the media/fans didn't want to. His arrogance was astounding imo.

Considering you are suggesting that England have plenty of world-class players, then yes their play was well below the sum of their parts. Need I remind you that the only team they managed to outplay was Slovenia and were beaten in all areas by the USA, Algeria (thankfully no strikeforce to speak of) and Germany? Not to mention being out-classed by Mexico and Japan in the warm-ups (regardless of the results).

England were hopeless in the build up, I agree. That said, I wouldn't have had those matches, I'd have had the players in SA and getting used to the conditions, not making them play more games so soon after the end of the season.

I've not said they have plenty, I've said they had four at the World Cup, which they did, and that doesn't change anything. They aren't now magically not world class, no matter how much Joe "Offended" Public lambasts their performances.

They are not. Ashley Cole and possibly (a fit) Rooney fit into that category. The rest are just decent/good players who, unlike say the Germans, manage to play worse collectively, not better.

You dismiss these players so readily.

You say that they are good at club level because they are surrounded by better players. Lampard is a better player than pretty much every midfielder he's played alongside at Chelsea. Essien is probably the exception but he's a lot better than the likes of Ballack, Deco or Mikel. Likewise, Gerrard has been the best of his type at Liverpool by a country mile over the last ten years, he is the one who has dragged Liverpool through the mire on occasion, it certainly wasn't him being propped up by foreigners! Same with Rooney, he's the driving force behind Man Utd, look at how their season was effectively finished as Rooney limped off against Bayern.

It seems like you have small club syndrome, so determined to have a go at the best players for failing that you can't see the wood for the trees.

 

[Robobum]

Considering you are suggesting that England have plenty of world-class players, then yes their play was well below the sum of their parts. Need I remind you that the only team they managed to outplay was Slovenia and were beaten in all areas by the USA, Algeria (thankfully no strikeforce to speak of) and Germany? Not to mention being out-classed by Mexico and Japan in the warm-ups (regardless of the results).

England *think* they have world class players, largely because the likes of Sky and idiotic pundits (ex-footballers it is worth noting) keep telling us/them that they are.

They are not. Ashley Cole and possibly (a fit) Rooney fit into that category. The rest are just decent/good players who, unlike say the Germans, manage to play worse collectively, not better.

Actually that's just plainly incorrect TA. England had more possession, more shots on goal (off & on target) more corners than all three of their group opponents. Believe it or not they also did the same with Germany!! Just goes to counter all those that think ball retention is the holy grail.

It's not only the English that think these players are world class. There are plenty of suitors for all those players from SPain & Italy etc.

 

[toonarmy]

It seems like you have small club syndrome, so determined to have a go at the best players for failing that you can't see the wood for the trees.

And it seems you are talking out yer blowhole. What have clubs got to do with England?

And from Boro talking about small club syndrome?

Well hello Mr Kettle, my name's Pot - you're black.

 

[Snelly]

Great initial post ToonArmy - erudite and eloquent.

And who is to blame? The players. End of.

They aren't good enough at football to win the World Cup when compared to other nations - this is a fact borne out by England's performance at every tournament since 1970.

As for it being about Capello - utter garbage. The same (laughingly termed world class) players were an abject failure under the last 3 managers who all had different ways of trying to coax the best out of these empty headed, culture vacuum inhabiting chavs and they all failed.

They are a sorry collection of overpaid, educationally sub-normal proles and if they can't muster enough energy to do the only thing that they are good at for a month then they should get all the criticism that they deserve.

It isn't about systems either. I played football at a high standard until I was about 18 and the manager's instructions were largely irrelevant after kickoff. When I played in good teams we invariably won and when in bad teams, we lost. Winning was more about technical skill, drive and attitude. The manager can motivate and if he is good in this area then he can have a positive effect. But drilling detailed plans into the heads of your average footy pro is a - not easy and b - of questionable value.

Contrary to what the media might like you to believe, football is not rocket science. The defence need to stop the other team, the midfield need to protect and create and the forward line need to create and finish.

It is all about the players, and ours are nowhere near good enough to win major trophies at international level. FACT.

 

[toonarmy]

Actually that's just plainly incorrect TA. England had more possession, more shots on goal (off & on target) more corners than all three of their group opponents. Believe it or not they also did the same with Germany!! Just goes to counter all those that think ball retention is the holy grail.

If you really believe that stats tell the story of a game...

Ball retention *is* the holy grail as long as it is coupled with intelligent distribution.

The other sides are perfectly happy to let us have the ball safe in the knowledge that sooner or later someone will hoof it and lose it. Teams we theoretically should have out-played we did not or are you really trying to suggest that based on the way they played England deserved to beat USA, Algeria and Germany?

It's not only the English that think these players are world class. There are plenty of suitors for all those players from SPain & Italy etc.

Oh, really? Pray tell, who in the English squad has ever played abroad? Where are these suitors? Which foreign club has ever made an authentic bid for an English player in this squad? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall Barcelona, Real Madrid, AC Milan, Inter Milan, Bayern Munich, Ajax, Lyon etc. making a bid for one member of the English squad.

If they are world class, then why aren't they being bought?

Don't believe the press/agent/TV hype. There are no suitors.

 

[Robobum]

.... I played football at a high standard until I was about 18 .....

Quite obviously you didn't, or the thought of earning ridiculous amounts of money from kicking a bag of wind round a field repulsed you so much you felt duty bound to stop?