Who's better the better player ?

[patricks148]

Following on from a comment on another post about handicaps.

Someone with a handicap at a course with CSS below par or one with the CSS over par?

And Why?


My own home course the CSS is two over par, which does allow more room to make buffer, but I would also say it can be tricky at times and you rarely see the lights shot out and the only really low net score I remember in the last few years was a guy off 18 shot 68 net.

So I think the course with the higher CSS/SSS

 

[Rooter]

not necessarily better player, but a player from a tough course on say 14 handicap would travel better than a 14 capper from an easier course. Look at Fish as a prime example, ok SSS is the same as par i think, but having played his course it is far from easy and his handicap travels very well, on an easier course his handicap would be much lower IMHO.

 

[HawkeyeMS]

Following on from a comment on another post about handicaps.

Someone with a handicap at a course with CSS below par or one with the CSS over par?

And Why?


My own home course the CSS is two over par, which does allow more room to make buffer, but I would also say it can be tricky at times and you rarely see the lights shot out and the only really low net score I remember in the last few years was a guy off 18 shot 68 net.

So I think the course with the higher CSS/SSS

It's impossible to say by just basing it on CSS\SSS alone.

 

[Ian_S]

If they've both got the same handicap then they should be the same if you put them both on the same course. A scratch golfer should shoot SSS at whatever course he goes to, regardless of the type of course he gets his scratch handicap from.

 

[patricks148]

If they've both got the same handicap then they should be the same if you put them both on the same course. A scratch golfer should shoot SSS at whatever course he goes to, regardless of the type of course he gets his scratch handicap from.[/QUO

I'm not talking about scratch golfers, but handicap.

 

[Ian_S]

I'm not talking about scratch golfers, but handicap.

It's the same thing though. A 14 HCP shoots SSS+14, regardless of what SSS is.

Hawkeye is right actually. Based solely on SSS information you can't say. If we had slope ratings in this country then you'd have a better idea.

 

[Val]

Handicaps are based on SSS/CSS not par so it shouldn't matter the course technically.

 

[harpo_72]

I used to play league matches for my club, it was scratch better ball. My club was always viewed with disdain by the more prestigious clubs in the area, purely down to the yardage and quality. However my club won it's league frequently and fielded a lowest handicap of 4. I got to 4 myself but when I started playing the league I was off 9, and I do remember walloping a 5 handicapper around his own course 7 and 6 .. The point is once you get to a certain level you can play most places because you have developed the skills you require, below 10 handicap, you should have some thing straight off the tee good for 220-230yards and a short game that works relatively well. I cannot comment on the mid handicaps I have very little experience of them.

 

[patricks148]

Handicaps are based on SSS/CSS not par so it shouldn't matter the course technically.

But that aside, the CSS would flag up the one course is harder than another surely?

say someone from a short easy course playing against someone from a longer harder course would be the same standard then?

 

[Foxholer]

Firstly. It's (only) SSS that you should be referring to. That's the 'Standard' score. CSS is the 'Competition' one that's specific to an individual comp and adjusts the SSS according to the scores on the day

This is actually one of the areas where the US Slope system provides a 'better' number (Index) as it's based on a 'bogey' golfer's results. What that did find was that as courses got tougher, higher handicap golfers need progressively more shots than those at the lower end.

So, and it's also my experience, those with higher SSS tend to handle 'different' courses better than those coming from lower SSS ones.

 

[Birchy]

At my course the SSS is 2 under par. Our teams won every league they have played in this season so IMO its a load of cobblers and doesn't make much difference.

 

[Foxholer]

Par is actually not all that relevant to course difficulty. It's quite possible to have courses of the same Par, but with significantly different SSSs.

Though for Cat 1s and Low Cat 2 players, courses with SSS more than 1 below Par can prove 'difficult' as they tend to need to be shooting 'very low' to get a cut.

Seems like you play at a 'tricky' course Birchy.

 

[Robobum]

For an extreme example, check out Painswick GC.

Under 5000 yds, par 67 - SSS 63!!!!!!!

If you take anything off them in a league match, you'll be lucky!!

 

[Val]

But that aside, the CSS would flag up the one course is harder than another surely?

say someone from a short easy course playing against someone from a longer harder course would be the same standard then?

CSS would say the course is harder and vice versa hence why handicaps are correct, 2 courses both par 70, 1 CSS 68 and 1 CSS 72, a 10 HC needs 78 or 82 to be bang on HC, its the course thats 4 shots different not the player technically.

 

[Deleted member 1147]

Isn't the point of the SSS to equalise handicaps from different clubs?

So if you play to 5 on an easy course you won't go down as much as on a more difficult course for example.

 

[USER1999]

But if you play matchplay, sss is irrelevant, and both 10 handicaps would effectively be off scratch.

 

[Region3]

But if you play matchplay, sss is irrelevant, and both 10 handicaps would effectively be off scratch.

But one guy might have got his handicap by playing around 8 over par on his easy course, and the other by playing 12 over par on his harder course.
They should still be as good as each other, all other things being equal - which they aren't.

 

[Foxholer]

But one guy might have got his handicap by playing around 8 over par on his easy course, and the other by playing 12 over par on his harder course.
They should still be as good as each other, all other things being equal - which they aren't.

Par is irrelevant to handicap - except for some conversions. It's the SSS that's the key.

So the 12 over on the hard course (Par 70 SSS 72) is deemed equivalent to 8 over on the easier one (Par 71 SSS 68). That is indeed the major purpose of the SSS!

What makes you think they aren't 'as good as each other'?

 

[Region3]

Par is irrelevant to handicap - except for some conversions. It's the SSS that's the key.

So the 12 over on the hard course (Par 70 SSS 72) is deemed equivalent to 8 over on the easier one (Par 71 SSS 68). That is indeed the major purpose of the SSS!

What makes you think they aren't 'as good as each other'?

The point I tried to make - not very well - was that just because 2 10hc's play at courses of differing difficulty, they should still be the same level as the differing SSS's mean they have shot different gross scores to achieve the same hc ie. it takes the same skill level to shoot 84 on a difficult course and 80 on an easier course.

The all other things being equal comment just means that there are multiple ways of shooting a particular score.
A 10 hc that is very long but wild and plays on a tight short course with SSS 2 under par might well do better on a very much longer course with wider fairways and a SSS of 2 over par.

You just never know.

I suppose the handicaps that travel best, will be those of players who are members at courses that don't play to their strengths and expose their weaknesses, regardless of SSS.

 

[lyden]

Ive always scored better from our championship tees which are par 71 sss 72. I played an open with a lad who was off 8 and a member at Royal Liverpool, He shot an 18 over par. Your handicap is a reflection of how well you play the game not what course you frequent.