Whites v Yellows

[Voyager EMH]

Two days time I will be playing in a seniors comp off the yellows.
I will be losing my best score off my 20-scores-record that was a 73 off whites. (Par 70 off whites and yellows)
So I will need to shoot 71 off yellows to match it.
If I shoot a 5-over par round (current HI gives me a CH/PH of 5) my HI will increase by 0.4.
This is why I would prefer to be playing from the whites. I find the shorter yellow-tee course much harder.

 

[Bdill93]

In GB&I, Course (and Playing) Handicaps are solely dependent on the Slope; Course Ratings are irrelevant to this calculation, so you should not be getting these extra strokes unless mixed tee adjustments are being applied.

Dont really know what that means

Slopes are 122 and 119 so they do differ

 

[Swango1980]

Two days time I will be playing in a seniors comp off the yellows.
I will be losing my best score off my 20-scores-record that was a 73 off whites. (Par 70 off whites and yellows)
So I will need to shoot 71 off yellows to match it.
If I shoot a 5-over par round (current HI gives me a CH/PH of 5) my HI will increase by 0.4.
This is why I would prefer to be playing from the whites. I find the shorter yellow-tee course much harder.

I accept it will be difficult for you to shoot a 71 off yellows. However, it is also going to be tricky for you to shoot a 73 off whites anyway, after all it is your best score in the last 20 rounds at least. So, regardless of what tees you play from, your handicap will probably be going up anyway.

Out of interest, why exactly do you find the shorter yellow course much harder? Surely, in nearly every circumstance, it should be easier. Even if it meant it brought penalty areas / bunkers into play off the tee, that you could not reach off whites, you would have the luxury of hitting a shorter, more accurate club off the tee and playing your next shot from where you would have done had you played off the whites. However, even it that were the case in one or 2 holes, in the remaining holes you would be able to play your second shot from closer to the green when playing off yellows.

 

[Swango1980]

Dont really know what that means

Slopes are 122 and 119 so they do differ

In other words, your course handicap is simply your Index x Slope/113. There is no adjustment for Course Rating in virtually all cases. The only time a further adjustment is made is in mixed sex competitions, where there is a difference in the Course Rating between men and women.

 

[Maninblack4612]

In GB&I, your Course Handicap does not account for the difference in difficulty (i.e. Course Ratings) between tee sets. However, when calculating your Handicap Index this difference it taken into account, so you should not see any significant difference in your index by submitting scores solely from either set of tees - unless the ratings are woefully inaccurate, or your game (especially with respect to distance) is wildly different from the average for your handicap.

This is not my experience. We have a few members who play in many yellow tee competitions in the winter. As a result their handicap indices are apparently a lot lower than they should be. This is evidenced by the scores they return in County events & white tee summer competitions. This, like the inflexible PCC, is another example of how the WHS doesn't work. The course off the white tees is more than one shot harder than the yellows but this is not reflected in the difference between the SS scores. Just as a player can manipulate their handicap by only playing in calm conditions they can also flatter themselves by returning a lot of winter scores.

 

[Bdill93]

In other words, your course handicap is simply your Index x Slope/113. There is no adjustment for Course Rating in virtually all cases. The only time a further adjustment is made is in mixed sex competitions, where there is a difference in the Course Rating between men and women.

Oh all our comps are mixed gender.

I hve just realised my first comment said PH though... I meant CH..

 

[wjemather]

Oh all our comps are mixed gender.

I hve just realised my first comment said PH though... I meant CH..

Oh right. In which case, it is the "mixed" part that accounts for almost all of the difference in your handicaps between tees. The difference in Slope ratings will mean at most one stroke difference in Course Handicap (for only a small minority of players) between tees.

 

[Bdill93]

Oh right. In which case, it is the "mixed" part that accounts for almost all of the difference in your handicaps between tees. The difference in Slope ratings will mean at most one stroke difference in Course Handicap (for only a small minority of players) between tees.

Yeah thats all it is! It seems to make sense, you just have to hope youre within the 0.4ish fluctuation and still maintain the additonal shot.. before then losing it again to 95%

 

[wjemather]

This is not my experience. We have a few members who play in many yellow tee competitions in the winter. As a result their handicap indices are apparently a lot lower than they should be. This is evidenced by the scores they return in County events & white tee summer competitions. This, like the inflexible PCC, is another example of how the WHS doesn't work. The course off the white tees is more than one shot harder than the yellows but this is not reflected in the difference between the SS scores. Just as a player can manipulate their handicap by only playing in calm conditions they can also flatter themselves by returning a lot of winter scores.

Sounds like your quibble is with the ratings, not the handicap system itself. Is the course is setup correctly, as per how it was rated; i.e. tees within 10 yards of the permanent distance marker; no more than 100 yards total difference from the measured course; etc.?

 

[Maninblack4612]

Sounds like your quibble is with the ratings, not the handicap system itself. Is the course is setup correctly, as per how it was rated; i.e. tees within 10 yards of the permanent distance marker; no more than 100 yards total difference from the measured course; etc.?

All Kosher. Just much easier from yellows, just as it's much easier when the wind doesn't blow.

 

[wjemather]

All Kosher. Just much easier from yellows, just as it's much easier when the wind doesn't blow.

That implies that you believe the ratings for the yellow tees are wrong. Have you analysed what people's handicap indexes would be if only scores from the yellow tees were taken into account, and compared to what they are, or what they would be using only scores from the white tees, to confirm any anomaly?

 

[Maninblack4612]

That implies that you believe the ratings for the yellow tees are wrong. Have you analysed what people's handicap indexes would be if only scores from the yellow tees were taken into account, and compared to what they are, or what they would be using only scores from the white tees, to confirm any anomaly?

No

 

[Swango1980]

This is not my experience. We have a few members who play in many yellow tee competitions in the winter. As a result their handicap indices are apparently a lot lower than they should be. This is evidenced by the scores they return in County events & white tee summer competitions. This, like the inflexible PCC, is another example of how the WHS doesn't work. The course off the white tees is more than one shot harder than the yellows but this is not reflected in the difference between the SS scores. Just as a player can manipulate their handicap by only playing in calm conditions they can also flatter themselves by returning a lot of winter scores.

Presumably you'd have had the same problem pre-WHS? After all, the Course Ratings now are pretty much the same as SSS before, except done to one decimal point.

The bold bit seems to indicate that your issue is with the Course Rating, not the handicap system in general. I'm assuming the difference in course rating between both sets of tees is one shot, and you think it should be more?

 

[Voyager EMH]

I accept it will be difficult for you to shoot a 71 off yellows. However, it is also going to be tricky for you to shoot a 73 off whites anyway, after all it is your best score in the last 20 rounds at least. So, regardless of what tees you play from, your handicap will probably be going up anyway.

Out of interest, why exactly do you find the shorter yellow course much harder? Surely, in nearly every circumstance, it should be easier. Even if it meant it brought penalty areas / bunkers into play off the tee, that you could not reach off whites, you would have the luxury of hitting a shorter, more accurate club off the tee and playing your next shot from where you would have done had you played off the whites. However, even it that were the case in one or 2 holes, in the remaining holes you would be able to play your second shot from closer to the green when playing off yellows.

Because I need to be two shots better for my round to achieve virtually the same handicap score.

All the theorising you have done about hazards and the like have only a tiny difference to me.

Playing an eight iron to two or three greens rather than a seven iron makes hardly any difference to me.

Two of the par-4s on the back nine have trees I can easily clear off the whites and cut the corner of the dogleg, but the yellows bring me closer to the trees and a driver shot will not reach enough height quickly enough. I have to hit a shorter tee shot to the side of the trees, a driver on that line will run out of fairway, leaving me a longer shot in, or hit a 5-wood over the trees which will still be shorter than a driver from the whites.

A lot of swings and roundabouts for me making little or no discernible difference overall to how I play the course and my score.

 

[Swango1980]

Because I need to be two shots better for my round to achieve virtually the same handicap score.

All the theorising you have done about hazards and the like have only a tiny difference to me.

Playing an eight iron to two or three greens rather than a seven iron makes hardly any difference to me.

Two of the par-4s on the back nine have trees I can easily clear off the whites and cut the corner of the dogleg, but the yellows bring me closer to the trees and a driver shot will not reach enough height quickly enough. I have to hit a shorter tee shot to the side of the trees, a driver on that line will run out of fairway, leaving me a longer shot in, or hit a 5-wood over the trees which will still be shorter than a driver from the whites.

A lot of swings and roundabouts for me making little or no discernible difference overall to how I play the course and my score.

So, it isn't technically harder, rather you believe the course rating is too low relative to whites.

I've no doubt this is bound to be true in many cases when you focus on an individual golfer. After all, we all have our own strengths and weaknesses.

 

[Maninblack4612]

Presumably you'd have had the same problem pre-WHS? After all, the Course Ratings now are pretty much the same as SSS before, except done to one decimal point.

The bold bit seems to indicate that your issue is with the Course Rating, not the handicap system in general. I'm assuming the difference in course rating between both sets of tees is one shot, and you think it should be more?

Yes, definitely

 

[rulefan]

Yes, definitely

But it's not all about CR. How do the Slopes compare?

 

[Ethan]

I have been a member at my place for 15 years and I think I have only played off the yellows once. I don't see the point.

 

[Voyager EMH]

So, it isn't technically harder, rather you believe the course rating is too low relative to whites.

I've no doubt this is bound to be true in many cases when you focus on an individual golfer. After all, we all have our own strengths and weaknesses.

My point is that it is technically harder by virtue of the technicalities.

 

[Maninblack4612]

But it's not all about CR. How do the Slopes compare?

121 to 126, which equates to 1.4 shots on the Course Rating. I'd fancy my chances much more off 11 from the yellows than 12 off the whites.