What part does the right hand play in the downswing?

[JustOne]

Are you sure about that?

Given that over 10% of that time (4/1000ths) is actually how long the club is in contact with the ball during impact, I'd challenge that value!

Got a link/reference?

Sean Foley.... coach to Tiger, Rose, Mahan etc etc

1min 15sec

[video=youtube;YjE8IM-ivV8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjE8IM-ivV8[/video]

Take it up with him if you have issues

 

[sawtooth]

For a right hander I would agree, the right hand/arm is a passenger for the first part of the downswing. Then later on when the club head is released it feels like the right hand helps to push the club head through.

 

[Foxholer]

Sean Foley.... coach to Tiger, Rose, Mahan etc etc

1min 15sec

[video=youtube;YjE8IM-ivV8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjE8IM-ivV8[/video]

Take it up with him if you have issues

Well he certainly doesn't say that the downswing only takes 3/100's of a second! He doesnt actually explain it, but he's probably talking about the time it takes for the club to go from under the out of position axis point to the 'over the ball' one. You've merely misinterpreted his words and actions to mean the entire downswing!

Let me just explain the numbers first.

There are 5280 ft in a mile, 3600 secs in an hour. At 1mph an object (say a clubhead) moves just under 1.5 ft in a second. At 100mph, an object moves 1.5 ft in 1/100th of a sec of 4.5 ft in 3/100th secs. Now the clubhead should be at max speed at impact (so probably quite a bit less even in those 4.5 feet) and certainly doesn't go from 0 to 100mph instantaneously. In addition, the arc of the clubhead is considerably more than 4.5 ft - nearer 20 in fact. So no way does the full downswing only take .03 secs!

Now from a more 'natural' reference....

A blink of an eye actually takes about 0.3 secs.

Are you really trying to say that the downswing takes one tenth of the time it takes to blink? I'd certainly call B/S on that one!

And just to confirm the values, check this out http://www.probablegolfinstruction.com/golf-swing-tempo-timing-rhythm.htm or here http://www.andrewricegolf.com/tag/swing-time/ or here http://www.travelandleisure.com/articles/smart-golf-march-2004 or even here http://www.mytpi.com/articles/biomechanics/measuring_the_timing_of_the_golf_swing_from_video

Downswing time of Woods in the first vid around 0.25 secs - blink at full speed and you just miss it!

So 'plenty of time' for any of the many thoughts that get into a golfer's heads and make the hands adjust - normally not very well - during the downswing!

 

[JustOne]

It's not often you post something that makes me laugh out loud.... but this one did it :thup:

To measure accurately you need to define 3 areas.... backswing/transition/downswing. Only then can anything accurate be defined, but that would be splitting hairs.

I'm happy to go with 3/100ths ... if you want to go with 25/100ths (faster than the blink of an eye) then that's fine with me...... and if you consider that to be 'plenty of time' well that just makes me laugh more

 

[sev112]

It should be there as a passenger. Certainly not trying to 'steer' the ball or the clubface... you should just be swinging the club and the ball should be simply 'getting in the way'. The downswing lasts about 3/100ths of a second, if you want to try and sneak something into that timeframe I don't think you'll end up with very good results, consistently.

I'd hasten say that world class (and even lower class) purposely manipulate their grip during a similar short period precisely to affect the direction the ball leaves the bat.

So, yes using your wrists in a golf swing elicit a particular direction is physically consistent.
Try to do it the first few (hundred?) times and you will probably not achieve your end consistently, especially as the conscious brain is (10times?) slower than the sub-conscious brain. Which is why top cricketers and golfers spend all that time practisining so that they can make the moves they want sub-consciously. It is also why many top sportsmen say things like "when I want to hit a draw I just think it and it happens" - so their sub-conscious brain makes the relevant and highly practised "draw" neural connections and hey presto.

So yes, you can use your right hand in the downswing to do certain things, but for us amateurs it isn't likely to be a very consistent outcome, particularly if we try and think about it at the same time !

 

[JustOne]

I agree somewhat with that Sev.... but I believe the 'decision' to make a change is taken (and executed) prior to 'mid downswing' as there isn't time to a) think/decide there needs to be a manipulation b) then act on it, eg: You might 'think' that you chose to close the club face as you were coming into the ball but you probably started doing it in transition where you already KNEW you were out of position or indeed out of position with what you'd already decided to do when you set up to the ball.

If you took something (the fasted human reaction possible?) such as a natural reflex (no physical thought).... the reaction time to getting burnt is 0.2-0.3 seconds..... and the entire downswing (that Foxholer says lasts for 0.25 seconds) would be over by then :thup:

 

[sev112]

I think I missed off the word "cricketers" in the first sentence - hence the reference to bat.

But yes, trying to manipulate half way down a swing with a bat or club consciously has all sorts of perils

However the sub-conscious brain is an amazing thing.
I played (for a while at least) to a reasonable standard of cricket (sorry Snelly, nicked your line there )
Being short, most fast bowlers would bounce me.
Yet I played many many hooks and late high cuts which involved no pre-thought whatsoever, involved a mid-shot reaction, and were well played. But they all required manipulation during a very short period of time.
I just didn't think about them - the shots just happened.

 

[JustOne]

Again I kind of agree... but the brain decides the shot as the ball is coming in... in fact you've probably rehearsed two or three shots that you're already THINKING of playing and then gauge the ball flight as quickly as possible. You're probably playing the hook shot the moment you begin your downswing.. any adjustment would be guesswork... and cricket isn't as measureable as golf... in cricket you can hit it anywhere in a gigantic field, apart from into someone's hands, which (oddly) happens quite often considering just how much space there really is to hit the ball into compared to the measly 9 outfielders and their tiny little palms... all that space and you hit it into someone's hands!!

If cricket was accurate (like golf) then no one would ever miss the ball across an outside edge... or accidentally (instincitively?) move the bat to the ball and clip it to the 1st slip ... no one would ever be 'OUT'.

If I applied my cricket skills to golf... I'd literally end up with a cricket score

 

[Deleted Member 1156]

you should just be swinging the club and the ball should be simply 'getting in the way'.

Very interesting! I seem to recall saying this to you a while back on one of your threads about impact position but you tried to tell me I was talking a load of rubbish

 

[JustOne]

Very interesting! I seem to recall saying this to you a while back on one of your threads about impact position but you tried to tell me I was talking a load of rubbish

You were. You have to know impact.... then swing, you have to know impact because there isn't time enough in the downswing to manipulate the club.... so you need to know what you're doing BEFORE you pull the trigger.

Don't worry.... when you post something I agree with I WILL say so :thup:

:rofl:

 

[Deleted Member 1156]

You were. You have to know impact.... then swing, you have to know impact because there isn't time enough in the downswing to manipulate the club.... so you need to know what you're doing BEFORE you pull the trigger.

Don't worry.... when you post something I agree with I WILL say so :thup:

:rofl:

You really do talk some nonsense. There are loads (majority?) of golfers that don't understand or want to understand the technicalities of the swing but still play to a decent standard. Nothing wrong with those people that do want to understand every detail but it is NOT a pre-requisite to hitting a decent ball.

 

[SocketRocket]

Many, even most of the worlds best Golfers roll the clubface open with a rotation of the forearms at the top of the backswing to keep it under the plane, then rotate it back square coming down then rotate it back shut in the follow through. Its not that complex a movement to control as the rotation happens progressively and the position of the right palm gives feedback to the brain on what is happening to the clubface. This is why many golfers early extend, flip their wrists or chicken wing their elbows to rescue the shot, its not a conscious action but one their 'super on board computer' is capable of calculating and taking what it believes is the appropriate avoiding action.

 

[JustOne]

You really do talk some nonsense. There are loads (majority?) of golfers that don't understand or want to understand the technicalities of the swing but still play to a decent standard. Nothing wrong with those people that do want to understand every detail but it is NOT a pre-requisite to hitting a decent ball.

I've never said that everyone has to talk about the technicalities.... those of us that WANT TO should be able to do so.

On a car forum some people will talk only about what colour their car is, the fuel economy or how fast they can drive..... some want to know how they can fix simple things like a broken tail light, others discuss how to totally strip the engine and rebuild it, bore out the cylinders stick in a sports cam and increase the torque.

I'm not sure why you have an issue that everyone isn't like you

 

[Deleted Member 1156]

I've never said that everyone has to talk about the technicalities.... those of us that WANT TO should be able to do so.

On a car forum some people will talk only about what colour their car is, the fuel economy or how fast they can drive..... some want to know how they can fix simple things like a broken tail light, others discuss how to totally strip the engine and rebuild it, bore out the cylinders stick in a sports cam and increase the torque.

I'm not sure why you have an issue that everyone isn't like you

Hmmm....did you actually read what I posted? I said quite clearly there is nothing wrong with people that want to try to understand swing technicalities.

 

[Snelly]

In Sam Sneads fantastic book on the keys of golf, one of the said keys is called "the right hand pours it on" and this refers to the way that the right hand powers through the bottom of the swing, generating pace with a late hit and squaring the club face.

So to paraphrase, the man with probably the best swing in the history of the game thought that the right hand was so important in the golf swing that he devoted a chapter in his most famous book to it. That is not quite the same as stating that the right hand is a passenger.


Personally, I don't have an opinion on what the right specifically does as I am sure it differs for everyone to some extent. But I do think that if Sam Snead believes it is vitally important then I am inclined to take that view too as he was a very, very good player indeed. One of the best in fact.

 

[JustOne]

But I do think that if Sam Snead believes it is vitally important then I am inclined to take that view too as he was a very, very good player indeed. One of the best in fact.

Believe what you like. Hogan, Nicklaus, Vardon etc etc all been proved that what they thought they were doing wasn't actually what they WERE doing, and/or offered poor/wrong advice.

one of the said keys is called "the right hand pours it on" and this refers to the way that the right hand powers through the bottom of the swing, generating pace with a late hit and squaring the club face.

I'm not a great follower of Snead but it appears the following line is by him....

"What fully releasing the right hand at this point can and does do is simply sustain the club-head speed that has been maximised by cetrifugal force"

.... I don't see where that says it generates pace? ......does 'sustain' mean 'generate'?


Ultimately I have no issue with someone trying to apply force to the ball with their right hand (although it's physically not possible to add club head speed that way) but they certainly shouldn't be trying to manipulate the club head or adjust in any way, there simply isn't time.

 

[Snelly]

As I said, I have no firm opinion on this and am just pointing out that some of the games great players have a different view.

Sam Snead has a full chapter of a book on the subject of the right hand so one line quotes don't really cover his thoughts comprehensively.

And I had temporarily forgotten that Hogan, Nicklaus, Vardon etc etc were all proved wrong / given wrong advice.

 

[sev112]

(although it's physically not possible to add club head speed that way)

Understandable IF your model is a weight on the end of a piece of string (because the club head is the other side of the centre of gravity of the club head/shaft/hands system, hence any rotational acceleration applied by the grip corresponds to a relative deceleration at the club head)

However if your swing model is different then it is perfectly feasible.
Just one example : no backswing; club starts from rest at P1, P2 wherever; with no starting rotational acceleration, by a twitch of the wrists the club head accelerates in the direction of the ball, and correspondingly it's velocity increases. This system is valid because it is not a rotation of the whole club around its centre of gravity, instead it is more like a translation mode

Another example. I start off standing 5 ft away / behind the ball. I then run at the ball, keeping the club in the exact same address position. The club head has the same velocity to my running speed and the club hits the ball. Next time as I run towards the ball I twitch my wrists and flick the club head towards the ball in front of me. The club head velocity now increases and I hit the ball further.

So, I'm not convinced that the right hand is physically incapable of increasing club head speed during a golf swing

 

[JustOne]

If you push the grip forwards then as you said the other end will slow down.. the speed is increased by a pulling motion of centripital force. You would actually have to move the grip end away from the target to accelerate the club head (kinda like pushing the shaft with your thumb whilst pulling the other end with your little finger around a tiny pivot point) and in doing so you're going to lose your rotational speed probably more than you can speed the club up. There's also something (can't remember what it's called now) whereby you can't pull and push at the same time.... as soon as you're pulling at 50mph then you can't push at 51mph... if you do then your pull power has just become obsolete.... and vice versa. Generally in a golf swing the pulling force far outweighs the pushing force...so there's no need to even bother trying to apply it. That said... there ARE some people who predominantly hit at the ball with their right arm (hitters rather than swingers).... but it's not a right HAND motion, it's the straightening of the right arm that applies the speed to the shaft... but even that has been debated whether it actually adds anything. For the straightening of the right arm to apply any pressure to the shaft the rotation would need to be slow enough so that the straightening of the right arm is significantly fast enough to actually do anything. And of course we are now only talking about swingspeed and pressure... to hell with being able to try and manipulate the clubface whilst the head is doing 100mph in 0.25 secs

In terms of the hand (the OP) it really doesn't do much at all. In terms of the right arm, well that's debatable seeing that it's not supposed to be fully straight until AFTER the ball is hit (release).

 

[Foxholer]

to hell with being able to try and manipulate the clubface whilst the head is doing 100mph in 0.25 secs

Thanks for the admission!

Clubface manipulation in this quarter of a second is relatively easy imo. However, getting it right is not so easy - and there's plenty to be said for minimising such manipulation. But as long as it's minor, consistent/repeatable and gets the required results, then I don't believe there's harm in having some.

I do agree that it's important to separate the discussion of HAND action from ARM action. It seems to me that there has been a bit of crossover.

I would not say that right hand is 'just along for the ride' any more than the left one is, but the amount of manipulation in any direction other than that of the swing plane should be minimised imo. This is the (one) area of Luke Donald's swing that trainers/analysts keep going back to as a likely cause for any of his 'poor swing' days. He does (and has always done) some quite peculiar hand movements just before/at impact that require perfect timing and when that's slightly out the results can be poor.