What is the correct count?

[vkurup]

Played our company golf day out. It is very social and not 'very competitive' as it is full of bandits - which is part of the fun. But had a peculiar situation that I was wondering what is the correct score for the hole. Happened to my PP/FC (HC 19) while playing a P4

1) Pulled the drive into the cabbage but had red stakes on them. I kind of saw the line, but as with these things you can never be sure. After we all tee-ed off, we all search for the ball. I was the last to join the search party. As we were searching, i said 'It went in before this line of trees', so we all focused in that area.

2) about 5-7 mins later, he dropped another ball and with a massive hoik, airmailed the dogleg sending the ball into the cabbage on the right hand side.

3) While the others were walking up the fairway to take our individual shots, he found his first ball (before the line of trees, but in an area that we may have not scanned properly). he mentioned 'you said it was not in this area). So he took his '2nd shot' by wedging it into the middle of the fairway)

4) From the middle of the f/w, hit an absolute peach of a shot to about 10 feet of the flag.

5) Found up his 'provisional' ball, rocked up to the green and putted the ball in for 3 points.


Later in the round, I pushed one into the long grass, while searching for mine, he asked me to hit a provisional while they continue searching to ensure that we keep pace of play. He finished with 38 pts, I shot 34 (so was a win). Given that we are a friendly bunch and he played the rest of his holes very well, it was a good win.

However, how does one account for this in serious matchplay.

Q1) My understanding of playing the 'dropping the 2nd provisional' would mean that you accept it as lost and it is a penalty.

Q2) Also, just because I said 'not in this area' and then later found one in that area, does it mean that morally I have to allow for his 2nd shot??

 

[bladeplayer]

Just checking , he dropped a ball and played under penalty yea ?

ok so that ball is now in play ,

he found his original and played it then picked up the one he had dropped under penalty ?

If im reading it right , as the ball he finished out with was no longer in play (after the drop) , the min he picked up the 2nd ball he scratched the hole as he had no ball in play ..

Im sure the real rules gurus will put you right tho..


Its not up to you to know where or to find his ball is by the way , thats his own problem , so it doesnt matter what you said or where you thought it was ..

Re him asking you to hit a provisional as they continued to search im taking it you walked up and searched for a bit and then he said that ? , you cannot return to hit a provisional

 

[HawkeyeMS]

Played our company golf day out. It is very social and not 'very competitive' as it is full of bandits - which is part of the fun. But had a peculiar situation that I was wondering what is the correct score for the hole. Happened to my PP/FC (HC 19) while playing a P4

1) Pulled the drive into the cabbage but had red stakes on them. I kind of saw the line, but as with these things you can never be sure. After we all tee-ed off, we all search for the ball. I was the last to join the search party. As we were searching, i said 'It went in before this line of trees', so we all focused in that area.

2) about 5-7 mins later, he dropped another ball and with a massive hoik, airmailed the dogleg sending the ball into the cabbage on the right hand side.

3) While the others were walking up the fairway to take our individual shots, he found his first ball (before the line of trees, but in an area that we may have not scanned properly). he mentioned 'you said it was not in this area). So he took his '2nd shot' by wedging it into the middle of the fairway)

4) From the middle of the f/w, hit an absolute peach of a shot to about 10 feet of the flag.

5) Found up his 'provisional' ball, rocked up to the green and putted the ball in for 3 points.


Later in the round, I pushed one into the long grass, while searching for mine, he asked me to hit a provisional while they continue searching to ensure that we keep pace of play. He finished with 38 pts, I shot 34 (so was a win). Given that we are a friendly bunch and he played the rest of his holes very well, it was a good win.

However, how does one account for this in serious matchplay.

Q1) My understanding of playing the 'dropping the 2nd provisional' would mean that you accept it as lost and it is a penalty.

Q2) Also, just because I said 'not in this area' and then later found one in that area, does it mean that morally I have to allow for his 2nd shot??

If I understand you correctly...

1) If you are sure the ball is in the hazard and it is that bad then why search for it?
2) Once he dropped and played the ball by the hazard, that's the ball in play (Shot 3)
3) He's just played an incorrect ball, he gets a two stroke penalty and disqualified for not correcting his mistake
4) He's just played the wrong ball again
5) It wasn't a provisional, it was the ball in play, if he had wanted to play a provisonal, he should have done so before leaving the tee

Extra bit: Provisionals have to played before leaving the tee or area of shot. If you lose you ball in the clag, you have to take stroke and distance penalty.

All in all, he should be disqualified for playing an incorrect ball and not correcting his mistake would be my interpretation.

 

[guest100718]

I would say he played the wrong ball and scored 0 on that hole.

Was he suggesting you play a provisional from the point where your ball may be lost?

 

[vkurup]

To clarify

1) He hooked his tee shot (Ball A) into clag
2) Looked, did not find it. Dropped a ball (Ball B) at nearest point of relief for the red stakes and airmailed it across into the clag on the right
3) Kept searching as we walked off and found Ball A.
4) Finished the hole with Ball A (4 shots, 3 points) and picked up Ball B.

From what I read above, it looks like a blob for S/F and loss of hole for Matchplay. Equally is it a DQ for the wrong card??

---
When I got into a similar situation later in the game. Asked me to 'drop' another near to where we were looking while they continue looking. Luckily we found ours else it would be me in a similar situation.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

reading what has gone on here I wonder if at point 3) having found his 1st ball in the cabbage he grounded it in any way or touched any of the cabbage while addressing the ball prior to playing his 'recovery' shot back onto the fairway,

 

[HawkeyeMS]

reading what has gone on here I wonder if at point 3) having found his 1st ball in the cabbage he grounded it in any way or touched any of the cabbage while addressing the ball prior to playing his 'recovery' shot back onto the fairway,

There are so many rule breaks here I wouldn't be surprised if he did, along with a bit of lie improvement by flattening long grass

 

[Fyldewhite]

I think we can safely say it was a blob!

Main points to note are that you can't play a provisional once you've gone forward to look for original. You can never play a ball found after 5 minutes. If you do make a mistake then you have to correct it and apply any penalties etc before the next hole or risk DQ. Oh, and morals don't come into it.......just do what the rules say, there's very little discretion to allow for a guilty conscience!!

 

[duncan mackie]

However, how does one account for this ......

The long version.....

When the player put the substituted ball into play with the intent to play a ball under Rule 26-1, he proceeded under an applicable Rule based on the existence of knowledge or virtual certainty that the ball was in the water hazard. Therefore, Rule 20-6 does not apply, and he must continue with the substituted ball (see Decision 26-1/3.5). The original ball was lost when Ball B was dropped under Rule 27-1 (see Definition of "Lost Ball"). If it was known or virtually certain that the original ball was in the water hazard, the player was entitled to invoke Rule 26-1. In the absence of knowledge or virtual certainty that the original ball was in the water hazard, the player was required to put another ball into play under Rule 27-1. In playing the ball dropped under Rule 26-1, the player played from a wrong place.

In match play, he incurred a penalty of loss of hole (Rule 20-7b).

In stroke play, he incurred the stroke-and-distance penalty prescribed by Rule 27-1 and an additional penalty of two strokes for a breach of that Rule (Rule 20-7c). If the breach was a serious one, he was subject to disqualification unless he corrected the error as provided in Rule 20-7c

When the player subsequently lifted this ball he incurred a penalty of one stroke under Rule 18-2a. When he made a stroke with the original ball after it was out of play, he played a wrong ball (see Definitions of "Ball in Play" and "Wrong Ball") and incurred a penalty of loss of hole in match play or an additional penalty of two strokes in stroke play (Rule 15-3). In stroke play, the player would be disqualified if, before playing from the next teeing ground, he did not correct his error (Rule 15-3b).

but I think I prefer "I think we can safely say it was a blob!"

 

[bladeplayer]

And DQ from the comp for signing for the wrong score ?

 

[BoadieBroadus]

after the 5 to 7 minute search the first one was lost and the ball in play is the one he dropped by the red stakes. anything he did with his original ball is therefore irrelevant.

he should have gone looking for the second ball in the second area of cabbage, and if he didn't find it, would have had to go back to the area of his drop and would have been playing 5 from there.

of all the rules that i think are most helpful for golfers to be on top of is what to do in the case of a lost ball, and when the ball is or isn't actually lost.

 

[HawkeyeMS]

after the 5 to 7 minute search the first one was lost and the ball in play is the one he dropped by the red stakes. anything he did with his original ball is therefore irrelevant.

he should have gone looking for the second ball in the second area of cabbage, and if he didn't find it, would have had to go back to the area of his drop and would have been playing 5 from there.

of all the rules that i think are most helpful for golfers to be on top of is what to do in the case of a lost ball, and when the ball is or isn't actually lost.

What he does with his original ball is very relevant as it costs him penalty shots and ultimately a DQ

 

[MadAdey]

2 things standout here:

1) he declared the first one lost in the hazard so played another under penalty of 1 stroke, which was correct.
2) after the allotted time of 5 minutes the ball is automatically deemed to be lost anyway, so could not play the first one when he found it like he did.

 

[HawkeyeMS]

2 things standout here:

1) he declared the first one lost in the hazard so played another under penalty of 1 stroke, which was correct.
2) after the allotted time of 5 minutes the ball is automatically deemed to be lost anyway, so could not play the first one when he found it like he did.

Not quite, you can't declare a ball lost, it becomes lost as soon as he plays (possibly when he drops) the second ball. The 5 minutes is also irrelevant at that point.

 

[chrisd]

Why didn't anyone shoot him?

 

[vkurup]

Why didn't anyone shoot him?

... Cuz it is a friendly society from work, and it's not the shooting bit that I am worried about, but being hauled up by HR that bothers me

Given that he 'advised' me to do the same shows that it might not be a one off....

At the next tee, I asked him, "so how does one count for hitting the lost ball" , it was kinda met with a shrug and silence ...

 

[duncan mackie]

2 things standout here:

1) he declared the first one lost in the hazard so played another under penalty of 1 stroke, which was correct.
2) after the allotted time of 5 minutes the ball is automatically deemed to be lost anyway, so could not play the first one when he found it like he did.

the biggest standout to me was that they could 5 mins looking for a ball in areas outside the hazard and only when they couldn't find it within that time did they decide it was definitely in the hazard..............which it wasn't.

but that wasn't the question asked

 

[HawkeyeMS]

the biggest standout to me was that they could 5 mins looking for a ball in areas outside the hazard and only when they couldn't find it within that time did they decide it was definitely in the hazard..............which it wasn't.

but that wasn't the question asked

I'd kind of assumed, maybe incorrectly, that they were searching in the hazard and were certain that's where it was. I don't suppose it matters though as it sounds like we could probably spot an infringement of every rule in the book if we dug a bit deeper

 

[MadAdey]

Not quite, you can't declare a ball lost, it becomes lost as soon as he plays (possibly when he drops) the second ball. The 5 minutes is also irrelevant at that point.

ok if you want to be pedantic about it he can't declare it lost, but he did by playing another ball.

 

[MadAdey]

I'd kind of assumed, maybe incorrectly, that they were searching in the hazard and were certain that's where it was. I don't suppose it matters though as it sounds like we could probably spot an infringement of every rule in the book if we dug a bit deeper

Yeah, just one or 2 infringements I think. Now I do not declare to be the greatest of players when it comes to the rules, but surely this is what should of actually happened:

Both himself and his FC's thought the ball was in the hazard, so he dropped a ball and played that after using the 5 mins you are allowed to search for a ball.
He then found his original ball not in the hazard, but can't play it as he has searched for longer than 5 mins.
Surely now that is the ball in play but can't play it, so must go and play from the tee under penalty of stroke and distance.
But is he now playing 3 or 5 from the tee for the 2 shot penalty for playing an incorrect ball when he hit the one he dropped.

I am not going interested in what happened after he found his original ball and hit it, I am more interested in what he should have done when he found his original ball as this is something that could easily come up one day when playing.