What is the correct count?

[Airlie_Andy]

On a similar note we have several blue staked areas on our course due to young staked trees which you are entitled to a free drop from. Now some of these are running parallel to the fairways ie eventually making them tree lined fairways. Now at this time of year with the rough being thick its very easy to lose your ball in these blue staked areas. Now given these areas are about 10 yards wide is it really possible to know or be virtually certain that your ball is lost within that area rather than in the rough either side of it? If your convinced it is lost in there is that enough or do you need a FC to agree? Also am I right in thinking if your are going to take a free drop in those circumstances it should be from where it last crossed the condition rather than where you guesstimate the nearst point of relief would be?

 

[MadAdey]

This might sound a bit stupid, but I can't get my head around what is being said here. If it turns out my ball was not in the hazard then surely that is the ball in play, wether it was within the allowed 5 minute time scale or not will then determine the following course of actions. ie, should I be going back to the tee treating it as a lost ball or playing it from where it lies, as it was found within 5 mins. Either way I feel he played the wrong ball when he hit the one he dropped, but as I said earlier, I am not the greatest at interpreting the rules of golf, when it comes to obscure rulings.

 

[duncan mackie]

This might sound a bit stupid, but I can't get my head around what is being said here. If it turns out my ball was not in the hazard then surely that is the ball in play, wether it was within the allowed 5 minute time scale or not will then determine the following course of actions.

it doesn't sound stupid, but it's wrong

the relevant sections of the rules have been quoted in response more than once here, but here it is again....

"As it was known or virtually certain that the ball was in the water hazard when the player put the substituted ball into play, that ball was correctly substituted and he may not play the original ball.

If the original ball was found in the water hazard and this discovery affects the reference point for proceeding under Rule 26-1b, resulting in the substituted ball having been dropped in a wrong place, the player must correct the error under Rule 20-6. The player must proceed in accordance with any of the applicable options under Rule 26-1 with respect to the correct reference point (see Decisions 20-6/2 and 26-1/16). Otherwise, Rule 20-6 does not apply and the player must continue play with the dropped ball. In either case, the player incurs a penalty of one stroke under Rule 26-1.

In the unlikely event that the original ball was found outside the water hazard, the player must continue with the dropped ball under penalty of one stroke (Rule 26-1)"

it may also help to review 27-1 given the logic you seem to be applying. The wording of the exception to 27-1 states

"Exception: If it is known or virtually certain that the original ball, that has not been found, has been moved by an outside agency (Rule 18-1), is in an obstruction (Rule 24-3), is in an abnormal ground condition (Rule 25-1) or is in a water hazard (Rule 26-1), the player may proceed under the applicable Rule. "

so, at any point that it is known, or virtually certain, that the ball is lost in a water hazard the player may proceed under 26-1 and drop a ball in accordance with that rule.

once he's played that ball it is irrelevant whether he recovers his original ball from the hazard or anywhere else.

 

[duncan mackie]

On a similar note we have several blue staked areas on our course due to young staked trees which you are entitled to a free drop from. Now some of these are running parallel to the fairways ie eventually making them tree lined fairways. Now at this time of year with the rough being thick its very easy to lose your ball in these blue staked areas. Now given these areas are about 10 yards wide is it really possible to know or be virtually certain that your ball is lost within that area rather than in the rough either side of it? If your convinced it is lost in there is that enough or do you need a FC to agree? Also am I right in thinking if your are going to take a free drop in those circumstances it should be from where it last crossed the condition rather than where you guesstimate the nearst point of relief would be?

it's possible, but unlikely - the committee should change the mowing patterns to help

yes

 

[Foxholer]

This might sound a bit stupid, but I can't get my head around what is being said here. If it turns out my ball was not in the hazard then surely that is the ball in play, wether it was within the allowed 5 minute time scale or not will then determine the following course of actions. ie, should I be going back to the tee treating it as a lost ball or playing it from where it lies, as it was found within 5 mins. Either way I feel he played the wrong ball when he hit the one he dropped, but as I said earlier, I am not the greatest at interpreting the rules of golf, when it comes to obscure rulings.

While I am unsure - actually, rather doubtful - that it was true in this case....

If it's deemed 'KorVC', then that's all that is required to proceed under those circumstances - and the substituted ball becomes the ball in play. If it's subsequently found that the 'KorVC' assessment was wrong - by finding the ball elsewhere - that is irrelevant. The substituted ball is still the ball in play and the original ball is simply a 'found' ball.

As Duncan mentions, searching for a ball for any period of time near a water hazard would normally indicate that KorVC that it was in the hazard would not apply - as Hawkeye posted, why bother searching.

With regard to where a ball lost in a Blue staked area should be dropped, then the 'reference point' is the point at which it last crossed the boundary - as is also the case in casual water or GUR. NPOR can only be established if the current position of the ball can be identified (ie. the ball is found).

As for the score....in RofG play, a definite 0 points on that hole! Too many breaches to bother counting!