What have I done wrong?

[bobmac]

I've almost driven a par 4
Just off the edge.
My fellow competitor has chipped on close and has just marked his ball.
I chip on, the ball rolls up to the hole, hits the pin and drops.
My fellow competitor, without my knowledge and without me asking has crept up to the flag to take it out after I've chipped on.
Why am I penalised?
What have I done wrong?

 

[Colin L]

Why am I penalised?
What have I done wrong?

You're not.

Nothing.
You're down in 2 :whoo:

End of story.

 

[bobmac]

Even if my fellow competitor is standing close enough to the flag to reach out and take it out?

 

[North Mimms]

I've almost driven a par 4
Just off the edge.
My fellow competitor has chipped on close and has just marked his ball.
I chip on, the ball rolls up to the hole, hits the pin and drops.
My fellow competitor, without my knowledge and without me asking has crept up to the flag to take it out after I've chipped on.
Why am I penalised?
What have I done wrong?

How has it managed to hit the pin if oppo has removed it?

(i know that you can have flag tended or left alone when off green. You can't decide to have it un tended, then call out "pull out the flag" once the ball is on its way)

 

[bobmac]

How has it managed to hit the pin if oppo has removed it?

Sorry, I meant he was ready to remove the flag after the ball had stopped rolling

 

[FairwayDodger]

Your opponent is tending the pin so I guess you are penalised for hitting it?

 

[Colin L]

My fellow competitor, without my knowledge and without me asking has crept up to the flag to take it out after I've chipped on.
Why am I penalised?
What have I done wrong?

Your question is ambiguous. I read that to mean he went to the flag after you had played the stroke.

Taking it that you meant he was close enough to the to the flag to touch it before you played, I would want to know what you were doing at the point he reached the flag. Head down, starting or ready to start your stroke with no chance of seeing what your opponent was doing? There is a critical point in this where even if had had reached the flag, he is in breach of 17-2.

Anyway, if your opponent crept up to the flag it sounds as if he was intent on causing you to incur a penalty so he should be penalised under Rule 1-2 for an action intended to influence the movement of the ball. A committee might consider such a deliberate action as a sufficiently serious breach to disqualify. As it would clearly be unfair that you are penalised as a result of this piece of sabotage, I think in equity you should get your birdie.

 

[North Mimms]

I've almost driven a par 4
Just off the edge.
My fellow competitor has chipped on close and has just marked his ball.
I chip on, the ball rolls up to the hole, hits the pin and drops.
My fellow competitor, without my knowledge and without me asking has crept up to the flag to take it out after I've chipped on.

Why am I penalised?
What have I done wrong?

Still very confused re this scenario.
I can't see what you've done wrong.
Hitting pin from off green is no penalty

 

[bobmac]

Apologies for the ambiguity.
He marked his ball near the hole and stepped away a few feet. While I was over my ball, he stepped nearer to the flag to save time so that after I had chipped on he could take the flag out.
When he sees the chip going a bit quick, he leaves the flag alone. The ball hits the flag and drops for eagle. As he is standing close enough to tend the flag without my knowledge or request, am I not penalised?

 

[BTatHome]

17-3/2
Opponent or Fellow-Competitor Attending Flagstick for Player Fails to Remove It; Player's Ball Strikes Flagstick

Q.A's ball lies on the putting green. A requests B, his opponent or fellow-competitor, to attend the flagstick, and B complies. A putts and B fails to remove the flagstick. A's ball strikes the flagstick. What is the ruling?

A.If B failed to remove the flagstick for the purpose of causing A to incur a penalty, B is disqualified, in both match play and stroke play, under Rule 33-7 for taking an action contrary to the spirit of the game. In stroke play, in equity (Rule 1-4), A must replay the stroke without penalty.

If B's failure to remove the flagstick was with the intent to influence the movement of A's ball (e.g., for the purpose of preventing A's ball from going beyond the flagstick), B is in breach of Rule 1-2, and loses the hole in match play or incurs a two-stroke penalty in stroke play, whether the ball strikes the flagstick or not. In stroke play, if the ball struck the flagstick and as a result A suffered significant advantage or disadvantage, then the Committee could consider B to have committed a serious breach of Rule 1-2, the penalty*for which is disqualification. Whether or not B has committed a serious breach of Rule 1-2, in stroke play, if A's ball struck the flagstick, in equity (Rule 1-4), A must replay the stroke without penalty - see Note 2 to*Rule 1-2.

If B's failure to remove the flagstick was not deliberate (e.g., the flagstick stuck in the hole-liner or B was distracted and did not see A putt), since B was acting on A's behalf, A incurs a penalty of loss of hole in match play or two strokes in stroke play under Rule 17-3. A must play the ball as it lies. B incurs no penalty. (Revised)

 

[CMAC]

Apologies for the ambiguity.
He marked his ball near the hole and stepped away a few feet. While I was over my ball, he stepped nearer to the flag to save time so that after I had chipped on he could take the flag out.
When he sees the chip going a bit quick, he leaves the flag alone. The ball hits the flag and drops for eagle. As he is standing close enough to tend the flag without my knowledge or request, am I not penalised?

In the real world no one is going to do that as your off the green and would then be standing in the way, unless, as ColinL points out looks like deliberate sabotage! If he was being 'helpful' why would he not withdraw the flag after you hit it?

Are you sure your medication has arrived?

 

[bobmac]

If he was being 'helpful' why would he not withdraw the flag after you hit it?

When he sees the chip going a bit quick, he leaves the flag alone.

 

[bobmac]

17-3/2
Opponent or Fellow-Competitor Attending Flagstick for Player Fails to Remove It; Player's Ball Strikes Flagstick

Q.A's ball lies on the putting green. A requests B, his opponent or fellow-competitor, to attend the flagstick, and B complies. A putts and B fails to remove the flagstick. A's ball strikes the flagstick. What is the ruling?

A.If B failed to remove the flagstick for the purpose of causing A to incur a penalty, B is disqualified, in both match play and stroke play, under Rule 33-7 for taking an action contrary to the spirit of the game. In stroke play, in equity (Rule 1-4), A must replay the stroke without penalty.

If B's failure to remove the flagstick was with the intent to influence the movement of A's ball (e.g., for the purpose of preventing A's ball from going beyond the flagstick), B is in breach of Rule 1-2, and loses the hole in match play or incurs a two-stroke penalty in stroke play, whether the ball strikes the flagstick or not. In stroke play, if the ball struck the flagstick and as a result A suffered significant advantage or disadvantage, then the Committee could consider B to have committed a serious breach of Rule 1-2, the penalty*for which is disqualification. Whether or not B has committed a serious breach of Rule 1-2, in stroke play, if A's ball struck the flagstick, in equity (Rule 1-4), A must replay the stroke without penalty - see Note 2 to*Rule 1-2.

If B's failure to remove the flagstick was not deliberate (e.g., the flagstick stuck in the hole-liner or B was distracted and did not see A putt), since B was acting on A's behalf, A incurs a penalty of loss of hole in match play or two strokes in stroke play under Rule 17-3. A must play the ball as it lies. B incurs no penalty. (Revised)

I'm not on the green

 

[BTatHome]

Don't see any reason why being off the green would make any difference to the decision, there are some other decisions about tending/not tending etc, that you can research.

 

[bobmac]

Don't see any reason why being off the green would make any difference to the decision, there are some other decisions about tending/not tending etc, that you can research.

I also haven't asked him to tend the flag

 

[CMAC]

I also haven't asked him to tend the flag

Post #7

 

[louise_a]

its rule 17-2, if you hadnt asked him and you didnt know prior to taking your shot, then he is penalised and you play your ball as it lies, so the 2 stands.

 

[Colin L]

Apologies for the ambiguity.
He marked his ball near the hole and stepped away a few feet. While I was over my ball, he stepped nearer to the flag to save time so that after I had chipped on he could take the flag out.
When he sees the chip going a bit quick, he leaves the flag alone. The ball hits the flag and drops for eagle. As he is standing close enough to tend the flag without my knowledge or request, am I not penalised?

Thanks for that. So the curtain rises on Act I Scene iii.

Still a bit confused about your FC's intentions though. Firstly he moves closer to the pin to save time after, I now presume, your ball had come to rest. Then he decides to leave the flag alone which suggests he thought he was tending the pin. That probably doesn't matter however as the crucial point is that while you are lining up your putt and all that, he was a few feet away from the pin. So as far as you were aware when you bent over your ball he was not close enough to be deemed to be tending the flagstick. You did not see his subsequent (and let's assume innocent) movement closer to the pin so you cannot be said to have given tacit acknowledgement that he was tending it. Note 2 to Rule 17-1 requires the player's knowledge that the pin is being tended. You did not have the knowledge.

So I am back to the start:
You're not.
Nothing.
You're down in 2
:whoo:

Edit: As Louise said while I was writing......except I don't see where there is a penalty for the FC .

 

[North Mimms]

its rule 17-2, if you hadnt asked him and you didnt know prior to taking your shot, then he is penalised and you play your ball as it lies, so the 2 stands.

I agree with Louise.

If you had sanctioned him tending the flag, you are deemed responsible for his actions, ie intentionally leaving pin in to unfairly influence ball, so you would be penalised.
Someone is deemed to be tending if they are standing by the flag.

However, from what you describe, he was a few feet away when you settled over your putt, ie outside tending area.
If he moves into position where he can be deemed to be tending the flag but you don't see him as you have your head down, I don't see how you can be at fault.

Is this based on a real event or are you just trying to make us think, Uncle bob?

 

[louise_a]

Edit: As Louise said while I was writing......except I don't see where there is a penalty for the FC .

The penalty for the FC is here

17-2. Unauthorised Attendance​

If an​

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​

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opponent or his caddie in match play or a fellow-competitor or his caddie​

in stroke play, without the player’s authority or prior knowledge, attends,removes or holds up the​

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​

​

flagstick during the stroke or while the ball is inmotion, and the act might influence the movement of the ball, the opponent​

or fellow-competitor incurs the applicable penalty.