What does forgiving actually mean in golf clubs?

[RichA]

Nothing on you but there have been numerous references to older blades on this thread. It may be heresy, but the modern blade has no comparison to older versions.
I've played the older versions, an example being Hogan Anniversary Apex blades, sweet spot smaller than a pea and I couldn't hit the 8i 100 yards. Fast-forward to the newer blades, Mizuno MP4, Apex18. Wilson Staff Model, all of which I have played. The manufactures have designed them optimising the weighting and CofG, and they are as easy to play as anything out there. They won't go as far, they fly higher and generally have weaker lofts, but then you just need to club appropriately, and of course you get to play blades.

Yeah, I've still got the Mizunos and do use them from time to time. If conditions are right, I'm having a good eyesight day, I've found a Supersoft and the moon is in line with Venus then they are a joy - and they are 40 year old, quite bladey blades.
When I was fitted for the G425s, I tested them alongside JPX921 Forged. I was desperate for those 921s to be good, but I wasn't having a great ball striking day and the difference between them was almost comical.
I'm sure it's very much horses for courses, but I believe that the better golfers are able to make the difference between "player" and GI irons smaller than the likes of me.

 

[Shooter McPowick]

I played Miz 850 forged for a few years, I found when you thinned one it went further… usually into some sort of trouble. I also found for me personally, there were occasions from the rough I’d get a “flier” but like waaaaaay long and again, usually into serious trouble. Lastly, I couldn’t always tell where on the Face I’d struck the ball.

Changed to 919 tour on the premise that if I struggled I could always go back to the 850’s. I’ve never looked back, not once. Thinned shots are a bit shorter, but usually in the fairway. Sure, I still experience “fliers” but never any as bad as with the cavities. I once remember a shot into the 3rd at MerristWood from wet rough (yes I know it doesn’t spin as much when wet etc) but I hit it so far through the back I only found it when walking to the 4th tee after giving up looking - couldn’t believe how far it went! And lastly, I can tell exactly where I’ve hit the face with the 919 tours and as a result my ball striking, while not perfect, is the best it’s ever been.

Also have a set of TP-9’s and often practice with them on the range. They’re not a problem either.

 

[Golfnut1957]

I think it's more likely that you've improved.
The Mizuno MP4 and Callaway Apex 18 (not sure which Staff model you're referring to) are proper blades with little to differentiate them from blades gone by.

The former may be true, but I would disagree about the latter. Maybe I need to buy an ancient blade and carry out some research.

Not completely unrelated but I have spent the last two afternoons trying to work out which set of irons to put in the bag, the Callaway apex 19 pro. Forged body, 360 Cup face, tungsten weighting and 1 degree stronger lofts than standard in the 6 to PW. Or, the Miura 501 cb, forged by the hand of god and which despite the cb in the name are as close to a blade as you can get without actually being a blade.

I have been playing with driver, putter, wedge and the 5 & 7 irons from both sets. Even though the 7 iron in the apex is 2 degrees stronger there is nothing in it in terms of distance, in fact the Miura have often been slightly longer with equally well struck shots*. The Apex have a slightly higher flight. Dispersion is slightly better with the Miura but in truth there is nothing in it to help me decide.

I am leaning towards the Miura. I have been playing the Apex all winter but the Miura are going in the bag tomorrow.

* I am not a robot

 

[Deleted member 30522]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.go...uch-golfers-have-improved-in-recent-years/amp

Ahhh balls, I was sure I'd seen conflicting data....

So yeah, if you have clubs from the late 90s, todays clubs (lets say nothing else has changed) could improve you by 2 shots. 2.5 shots max...

Unless your a woman, then its 4 shots max...

Wow, so completely contradicting every statement you've made on the topic.

And let's not forget, by the 90s, game improver clubs were already in place, and many players changing/changed. Be interesting to go back to 1982 at the point the handicap system changed.

 

[Orikoru]

I honestly think some of you guys are too good at golf too appreciate the forgiveness.
Sample size of 1, I know, but 18 months ago I was hacking around with my 40 year old Mizuno blades and Ping Eye 2 irons, celebrating sub-100 rounds. 3 months into owning the G425s and I was just one screwed up tee shot from breaking 80. Now I'm playing off 15, with nothing to explain it other than the clubs.
Another major difference we haven't mentioned is recovery. A year ago, if my tee shot went into the rough (shin deep at our place, not the stuff that hasn't been mowed for a week at the better clubs), I would've been taking my medicine and hacking sideways towards the fairway. Now I'm reasonably confident that I can smash my 9 iron 150 yards towards the green. That is possibly a bigger game changer than the fairway forgiveness for guys like me, who expect their 3rd shot to be a wedge into the green rather than a birdie putt

Some people will tell you "you can't buy a game with equipment" and so on. I honestly think they're in denial. To say you can't improve your game by buying more forgiving gear is kidding yourself. I've seen it many times, in my own game and others'. Some just don't like to admit it because it's not the way it used to be done or not a way they approve of. My mate was slicing drives over the fence regularly, he went and got fitted for the G425 SFT, came back to the course and went 'watch this' - hit his normal drive and got nothing more than a gentle fade. Hasn't changed his swing whatsoever.

I decided a while ago that I'll probably always use game improver irons. I don't practise enough to be a great ball-striker, or to start learning how to hit draws on command - so why would I not always want the forgiveness? I wouldn't be using blade-type irons unless I was off something between 0 and 4, and that's never going to happen.

I checked the Maltby index that was referenced in this post and my current irons are apparently one of the most forgiving irons of the last 10 years! So I'm scared to ever get rid of them now.

Here is that index if anyone's interested https://ralphmaltby.com/golf-head-ratings/

 

[phillarrow]

So the general consensus is that GI irons DO help mishits by losing less distance? Can anyone explain those two MC videos? Why was his dispersion tighter with very old Slazenger blades than with GI irons?

 

[Beezerk]

So the general consensus is that GI irons DO help mishits by losing less distance? Can anyone explain those two MC videos? Why was his dispersion tighter with very old Slazenger blades than with GI irons?

Maybe because he’s a big dosser who likes to be controversial? ?

 

[Orikoru]

So the general consensus is that GI irons DO help mishits by losing less distance? Can anyone explain those two MC videos? Why was his dispersion tighter with very old Slazenger blades than with GI irons?

Maybe because he’s a big dosser who likes to be controversial? ?

Possibly this. If he made the video and GI clubs were the winner it wouldn't have been worth watching. So he could have engineered a "surprising" conclusion for more clicks.

 

[Imurg]

Forgiveness can be quantified, to an extent.
This YouTuber has spent hours collating data from his testing and fittings he's done
Using comparable delivery data he's been able to show how much drop off in distance you get from various off centre hits.
If you don't want to go through the whole video the forgiveness charts start around 18 minutes
Sure, the numbers are not hugely different but it shows how so e irons are better at dealing with heel strikes and some better with toe strikes.

 

[sweaty sock]

Fair play for posting a contradicting article

I would hazard a guess that with the increased accessibility of golf. Players with a handicap has increased, and would bring the average index up. No data, just a guess!

As for me, I used beautiful Tiger woods blades. I enjoy my golf much more with p770's.

Wow, so completely contradicting every statement you've made on the topic.

And let's not forget, by the 90s, game improver clubs were already in place, and many players changing/changed. Be interesting to go back to 1982 at the point the handicap system changed.

Haha, so yeah if you move from 1991 clubs to 2016 clubs you can expect to improve from scoring 88 to 86... all my arguments totally blown out of the water....

 

[phillarrow]

Maybe because he’s a big dosser who likes to be controversial? ?

I thought that might be the response, he's definitely marmite! However, Michael Newton has done the same kind of tests and also found dispersion to be tighter from blades?

Forgiveness can be quantified, to an extent.
This YouTuber has spent hours collating data from his testing and fittings he's done
Using comparable delivery data he's been able to show how much drop off in distance you get from various off centre hits.
If you don't want to go through the whole video the forgiveness charts start around 18 minutes
Sure, the numbers are not hugely different but it shows how so e irons are better at dealing with heel strikes and some better with toe strikes.

Great video, thanks for this. I think we might have an explanation here?!

Interesting how his dispersion was also tighter with the blades though? Maybe it's my view of the word forgiveness that is causing my own confusion? As I've said, I want my irons to be more consistent on general hits, as opposed to still travel a reasonable distance on total mishits. Maybe the term 'forgiveness' really relates to a club's ability to launch the ball into the air from various points on the face, both horizontally and vertically?

In terms of the above video, I think it was interesting that the HMP was better on toe strikes, whereas the MB was better on heel strikes. Given that the most common swing fault seen in us club hackers is a slight over the top path, leading to more toe strikes, maybe this is the real story behind why we find GI irons more forgiving???

 

[Imurg]

I thought that might be the response, he's definitely marmite! However, Michael Newton has done the same kind of tests and also found dispersion to be tighter from blades?



Great video, thanks for this. I think we might have an explanation here?!

Interesting how his dispersion was also tighter with the blades though? Maybe it's my view of the word forgiveness that is causing my own confusion? As I've said, I want my irons to be more consistent on general hits, as opposed to still travel a reasonable distance on total mishits. Maybe the term 'forgiveness' really relates to a club's ability to launch the ball into the air from various points on the face, both horizontally and vertically?

In terms of the above video, I think it was interesting that the HMP was better on toe strikes, whereas the MB was better on heel strikes. Given that the most common swing fault seen in us club hackers is a slight over the top path, leading to more toe strikes, maybe this is the real story behind why we find GI irons more forgiving???

The HMB isn't really a blade. Its a hollow body iron like the P790.
Just looks like one..

 

[Imurg]

This is, possibly a better one....i210 v i500 v iBlade....starts about 18.30 in.

 

[Jimaroid]

Here's a recent and biased personal comparison I have. Both are Mizuno 8 irons. Blade on the right that I bought on a whim due to them being sexy, JPX series GI cavity on the left that I was custom fitted for.




I've always been slightly shorter with the blades which I feel is the heavier shaft, I can't swing them as quick. But the interesting thing here is that I was carrying an injury when hitting the JPX, it's the situation where I would expect the "more forgiving GI iron" to help but it's a load of rubbish.

What I can say is that, whilst the JPX don't feel as bad on the poor strikes, the end result is no better. I've become much more prone to mishitting the GI irons than I do with the blades which is probably a result of swing speed. It could also be a bad fit in the JPX.

There's a few things I've learned over the years of playing both these sets of irons:
My blades are shorter but more consistent. My mishits are generally a straight thin and it really stings the fingers. I know when I've hit a bad shot immediately.
My cavities are longer but less consistent. Mishits are generally short right but don't feel bad even though they're a worse result.

This year I'm going back to playing the blades simply because I get more enjoyment from them and I think I'll hit more greens. I can't be bothered tracking data on this, I just want to enjoy hitting irons again which is a feeling I've lacked for too long. I've persevered with a custom fit set of irons for longer than I should have due to them being "right for me" and I've come to the conclusion that it's all a load of crap.

 

[phillarrow]

This is, possibly a better one....i210 v i500 v iBlade....starts about 18.30 in.

That suggests the opposite - heel strikes are punished more on blades?! I give up!

 

[Beezerk]

Here's a recent and biased personal comparison I have. Both are Mizuno 8 irons. Blade on the right that I bought on a whim due to them being sexy, JPX series GI cavity on the left that I was custom fitted for.

View attachment 40971


I've always been slightly shorter with the blades which I feel is the heavier shaft, I can't swing them as quick. But the interesting thing here is that I was carrying an injury when hitting the JPX, it's the situation where I would expect the "more forgiving GI iron" to help but it's a load of rubbish.

What I can say is that, whilst the JPX don't feel as bad on the poor strikes, the end result is no better. I've become much more prone to mishitting the GI irons than I do with the blades which is probably a result of swing speed. It could also be a bad fit in the JPX.

There's a few things I've learned over the years of playing both these sets of irons:
My blades are shorter but more consistent. My mishits are generally a straight thin and it really stings the fingers. I know when I've hit a bad shot immediately.
My cavities are longer but less consistent. Mishits are generally short right but don't feel bad even though they're a worse result.

This year I'm going back to playing the blades simply because I get more enjoyment from them and I think I'll hit more greens. I can't be bothered tracking data on this, I just want to enjoy hitting irons again which is a feeling I've lacked for too long. I've persevered with a custom fit set of irons for longer than I should have due to them being "right for me" and I've come to the conclusion that it's all a load of crap.

Very interesting, if you don’t mind me asking, what’s your handicap?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Not getting annoyed at grey socks or slow play?

Either that or I can almost hit the hosel and the ball flies away looking like a good shot - when in fact it was a very lucky strike with a decent outcome.

But I shouldn't be fooled. Forgiveness in a club is all very well if I just want to get round in a decent number of shots...but it's no good whatsoever when I want to improve my game - other than possibly giving me a bit of confidence in my ability to get the ball round in an OK score.

When I am on the range my pro has got me checking where on the clubface the ball comes off. I am not actually that interested in the outcome of the shot...it can look good but not be what I must do - and I must not practice what is poor striking even if it gives me (mostly) what appears to be a decent outcome.

I'll add that this is a very different and new mindset for me - never in 50yrs of playing have I been that bothered about the strike if the outcome was OK or good.

 

[Imurg]

That suggests the opposite - heel strikes are punished more on blades?! I give up!

Not all clubs are the same, contrary to some belief on here.
Weighting can have a dramatic effect on how a club deals with different strike points..
You need to know where your miss is on the face
If you're mainly out of the toe there's no point getting a club that's great on heel strikes but average on toes..
You can only find out by testing..

 

[Jimaroid]

Very interesting, if you don’t mind me asking, what’s your handicap?

I'm currently 9 and getting worse due to lack of play.

 

[Deleted member 30522]

Haha, so yeah if you move from 1991 clubs to 2016 clubs you can expect to improve from scoring 88 to 86... all my arguments totally blown out of the water....

Yes.

You said they don't work. A two shot drop across the board in handicap index is massive. We're talking a lot of data here.