What does forgiving actually mean in golf clubs?

[Banchory Buddha]

I can't find the left handed one right now, but here's another one of his. Go to 8mins 30secs if you want to just see the results. I'm genuinely interested in the 'truth' here. Are they actually more forgiving or have we all bought into the marketing and using (as someone else suggested earlier) confirmation bias to believe something that's just not true?

yes

 

[sweaty sock]

If clubs are more forgiving, why are so many sets only 5-gw?

Clearly an old school 3 iron is so unforgiving its impossible to hit..., erm, just like a modern 3 iron then.

 

[RichA]

I agree with you...or at least I did until I watched them in depth and, for example, MC played left handed. Clearly, playing wrong handed he is not going to be hitting the centre as often as playing right handed, but he still found the same thing??

I've watched plenty of MC's material. I quite like him, so I'm not criticising.
However... left handed, he still has the hand eye coordination, timing and understanding of the golf swing of an elite(ish) golfer.
When they're trying to simulate mid-high handicap golfers, they either drop 2 clubs, go at it 75% or play really weird armsy and wristy shots.
Nobody can replicate my bad shot. I can't even do it deliberately.

 

[BiMGuy]

Its a marketing term with no quantifiable units, no measuable effect and is there only to sell golf clubs.

People are simple, confirmation bias is strong, forgiveness is made up.

All hail, Pepsi Max! Just diet pepsi, but with a name that boys will buy!!

Out of interest. What clubs do you play?

 

[sweaty sock]

I've watched plenty of MC's material. I quite like him, so I'm not criticising.
However... left handed, he still has the hand eye coordination, timing and understanding of the golf swing of an elite(ish) golfer.
When they're trying to simulate mid-high handicap golfers, they either drop 2 clubs, go at it 75% or play really weird armsy and wristy shots.
Nobody can replicate my bad shot. I can't even do it deliberately.

But if i were a manufacturer, who owns a robot, and can hit any path, speed, angle of attack, strike location, club face orientation, repeatably. Why wouldnt I demonstrate how much more carry distance and smaller despersion radius my new forgiving clubs can achieve?

Probably the same reason robots are never used to show distance gains....

 

[BiMGuy]

If clubs are more forgiving, why are so many sets only 5-gw?

Clearly an old school 3 iron is so unforgiving its impossible to hit..., erm, just like a modern 3 iron then.

Because that new 5 iron is the same loft as an old 3 iron.

 

[phillarrow]

Here it is. 10 mins 40 secs for the front to back dispersion playing left handed. So unless this is just false, what on earth is forgiveness?

 

[sweaty sock]

Out of interest. What clubs do you play?

Last 4 sets have been

Snake eyes 695 ( small cavity)
Titliest AP1 (Super game improvement)
Taylormade P790
Taylormade P7MC

 

[phillarrow]

I've watched plenty of MC's material. I quite like him, so I'm not criticising.
However... left handed, he still has the hand eye coordination, timing and understanding of the golf swing of an elite(ish) golfer.
When they're trying to simulate mid-high handicap golfers, they either drop 2 clubs, go at it 75% or play really weird armsy and wristy shots.
Nobody can replicate my bad shot. I can't even do it deliberately.

I get you, and I'm continuing to post because I'm genuinely curious about this, not because I'm arguing or have an opinion one way or another. However, have you watched that first one I posted? He shows the differing strike locations. These clubs are not being hit in the centre!

I wish I had enough money to buy two new sets and test them over and over again using Shot Scope to see if there is a real world difference.

 

[Foxholer]

No, you've misunderstood my post.

I'm not suggesting that stronger lofts = more forgiveness. I am saying that because forgiving irons are stronger lofted than traditional sets, the marketing side of golf has used the extra distance from the stronger lofts to sell clubs. They have moved mass so that a seven iron still flies like a seven iron, even though it is the loft of a six iron. This makes the consumer happy because they can now hit their seven iron as far as they used to hit their six iron. The psychology of people is such that they will feel more confident because it has a number 7 on the bottom, even when they know it's the same loft as their old six! But, is this actually a more forgiving club, or just one that is different from how clubs used to be?

Replace the bold 'are' with 'can be' and I'd agree.
The italicised bit is illogical. There would be no point doing so. It flies like a 'traditional' 6 iron - because it's the loft of a 6 iron (and the 272gm weight of a 7 iron).
As for whether it's actually more forgiving or not...I'll opt for the bold bit.
Oh, and btw...It's the marketing side that imposes design criteria on club designers, they don't simply discover something from what the designers have done!

 

[phillarrow]

Replace the bold 'are' with 'can be' and I'd agree.
The italicised bit is illogical. There would be no point doing so. It flies like a 'traditional' 6 iron - because it's the loft of a 6 iron (and the 272gm weight of a 7 iron).
As for whether it's actually more forgiving or not...I'll opt for the bold bit.

Can you name any set of clubs that are in the GI or SGI category that have traditional lofts? I've looked and can't find any??

And I'm sorry, but you're wrong about the ball flight because that is exactly why the manufacturers have moved weight to the bottom of the club. Modern seven irons are designed to fly at the same peak height as traditional seven irons, despite having the loft of an old six iron. It is the peak height that the manufacturers use to 'define' a club as a particular iron - 7, 6, 5 etc.

 

[RichA]

But if i were a manufacturer, who owns a robot, and can hit any path, speed, angle of attack, strike location, club face orientation, repeatably. Why wouldnt I demonstrate how much more carry distance and smaller despersion radius my new forgiving clubs can achieve?

Probably the same reason robots are never used to show distance gains....

I don't think overtly marketing a club as benefiting duffers who veer between hitting the ground an inch behind the ball and topping it would appeal to their target audience. Sexier to talk about "off centre strikes", as if we're talking about millimetres.
That's why mid-high handicappers like me find ourselves testing and sometimes buying players irons.
Golfers are vain.

 

[sweaty sock]

I don't think overtly marketing a club as benefiting duffers who veer between hitting the ground an inch behind the ball and topping it would appeal to their target audience. Sexier to talk about "off centre strikes", as if we're talking about millimetres.
That's why mid-high handicappers like me find ourselves testing and sometimes buying players irons.
Golfers are vain.

Whats the more likely marketing meeting

Managing Director: Everyone engineering have made a demonstably better golf club that hits straighter and further every time! We can improve everyones golf!

Marketing Manager: Yeah, well, jolly good, we'll hint at that but lets keep people guessing.

Or

Managing Director: Everyone our threadbare engineering department have squeezed 50p out of the cost of that 4 year old driver and painted it blue. Can you make up some words so it can be sold for £150 more

Marketing Manager : ULTRASPEED BLUE!!

 

[IanM]

I know that an off centre hit on my first drivers bobbled along the ground.

A similar strike on the new ones gets you 2/3rds distance down the fairway (ish) !!

That's my definition and it suits me fine. I don't feel any need for any further disintegration and of course there's some marketing waffle at large too.

With my irons I know there's a "greater margin for error" on Ping G irons than the i range I use, but you try hitting a fade round some trees with a G ???

 

[BiMGuy]

Last 4 sets have been

Snake eyes 695 ( small cavity)
Titliest AP1 (Super game improvement)
Taylormade P790
Taylormade P7MC

Nice clubs. Do you not notice a difference between them on poor strikes?

I have a set of G400 and a set of i210. On toe and low strikes in particular, The i210 loses a lot more distance compared to the G400. How much is impossible to qualify I agree.

 

[BiMGuy]

Can you name any set of clubs that are in the GI or SGI category that have traditional lofts? I've looked and can't find any??

And I'm sorry, but you're wrong about the ball flight because that is exactly why the manufacturers have moved weight to the bottom of the club. Modern seven irons are designed to fly at the same peak height as traditional seven irons, despite having the loft of an old six iron. It is the peak height that the manufacturers use to 'define' a club as a particular iron - 7, 6, 5 etc.

Define traditional lofts?

Ping will sell you a set of irons with “traditional lofts”

As I say with everything. I don’t understand why people get annoyed by these things. If you don’t like it, don’t buy it.

Go get a set of “traditional” clubs and enjoy your golf. Just as I’m going to buy a shiny new driver, probably a Stealth and I will enjoy the 2 yard gain and extra forgiveness it gives me.

Now, if someone can work out how to get some forgiveness out of the wife. I’d pay handsomely for that ?

 

[Blue in Munich]

Its a marketing term with no quantifiable units, no measuable effect and is there only to sell golf clubs.

People are simple, confirmation bias is strong, forgiveness is made up.

All hail, Pepsi Max! Just diet pepsi, but with a name that boys will buy!!

https://askanydifference.com/difference-between-diet-pepsi-and-pepsi-max/

The main difference between Diet Pepsi and Pepsi Max is that Diet Pepsi uses only aspartame whereas Pepsi max uses both aspartame and acesulfame potassium but Diet Pepsi has higher aspartame content.

Another key difference in the marketing strategies was that Diet Pepsi was introduced as zero calories and carbohydrate free whereas Pepsi Max was introduced as low-calories and low – carbohydrate content drink.

Diet Pepsi and Pepsi Max also differ in their caffeine content. Diet Pepsi was created with lower caffeine content of 23mg whereas Pepsi Max has higher caffeine of 43mg.

So Pepsi Max is not just Diet Pepsi then.

 

[RichA]

Whats the more likely marketing meeting

Managing Director: Everyone engineering have made a demonstably better golf club that hits straighter and further every time! We can improve everyones golf!

Marketing Manager: Yeah, well, jolly good, we'll hint at that but lets keep people guessing.

Or

Managing Director: Everyone our threadbare engineering department have squeezed 50p out of the cost of that 4 year old driver and painted it blue. Can you make up some words so it can be sold for £150 more

Marketing Manager : ULTRASPEED BLUE!!

Neither. It's simply a case that "We can make your shots longer and straighter" sells better than "We can make your bad shots less terrible".

 

[Robster59]

I'm old enough that the GI irons didn't even exist when I started playing. I've graduated through and now have Callaway XR's.
I believe they are more forgiving than my old blades, especially on the longer irons.
I also have a set of Maxfli Revolution Midsize which, whilst not blades, are certainly thin topped and not as forgiving. Lovely in the short irons, more challenging, and definitely shorter, in the longer irons.
And as for the lofts. The cranking of the lofts in the GI irons is a relatively recent thing. The older GI irons did not have the lofts cranked up in the way the modern ones are. When I moved from my Mizuno MX-900's to my Callaway's, each club was one loft stronger (i.e. a 6 iron MX-900 had the same loft as my 7 iron Callaway XR), and it continued like that throughout the set.
And as @IanM said, the same applies to the woods as well. Whether the original persimmon or the early metal headed woods. There is a lot more forgiveness now with the bigger heads. Some of this is offset by shafts that are also much longer, but that is a different discussion.

 

[Banchory Buddha]

If clubs are more forgiving, why are so many sets only 5-gw?

Clearly an old school 3 iron is so unforgiving its impossible to hit..., erm, just like a modern 3 iron then.

hybrids have come along, you know, easier to hit