What are WE paying for???

[brendy]

I view the price of new irons differently.
Take a standard set of titleist AP2 Irons. They don't just arrive at the proshop from nowhere.
The raw materials used are stainless steel, Tungsten Nickel, aluminium, elastomer, rubber and to a lesser extent, glue and grip tape.
Metals dont just appear in trees, Tungsten for example (a high percentage is produced in China and Russia, very little is found in europe) is a heavy metal that costs a fortune to produce, form (has the highest melting point of all metals well over 3400 degrees cent) and ship. It is one of the toughest metals but is brittle in 100% concentration, a lot of money into research shows that adding a little steel to tungsten makes it remarkably stronger. Then there is the nickel and aluminium to produce. Someone needs paying for producing these and shipping to Titleist. The elastomer is made from rubber, which isnt commonly found anywhere near us so needs vulcanized and shipped to titleist. The shafts need made, the heads need to be formed from the materials listed above then the grip, tape and finally the shaft sticker need to be made and fitted to create just one club. Regardless of the mass production, there is still R&D, production, marketing, sales, advertising and delivery to the pro shop to be included, THEN the pro has electricity, rates, water, staff costs and an actual living to make. How anyone can put a price on this in the first place makes me feel dizzy but I also appreciate that the likes of MD are cheaper but as someone mentioned above, they (and their suppliers and the suppliers of the suppliers) are making less profit and passing the saving onto the customer all in the name of making a living and keeping folk employed. Everywhere along the chain corners are cut which isnt necessarily a bad thing, I disagree with giving kit to anyone lower than the top 100 players, that way up and coming players can make up their own mind about who is best for them and not who will give them a free set of irons.

 

[TonyN]

Brendy great post that.

Anyone who has watched the mizuno video on the art of forging will get a little insight into the large task it takes to make clubs. Plus what people foget is club can last us 10 years. They mostly dont but thats our fault because we swap them when new shiney nes come along.

My pals often call me mental when they ask how much my new bats cost. £280 on a driver, 1 club, are you mad. Says the guy that spends this amount on fags for about 6 months, or on a piece of plastic he sticks to his dashboard to change songs in his car.

 

[brendy]

Spot on Tony, one mans expensive clubs are another mans mp3 car stereo kit.
What some people forget is that you have a very easy choice when it comes to new clubs, take it or leave it, there are other makes and models and if the brand doesnt matter then...it doesnwon't matter.
Clubs never progress that much in the space of a year, the last major difference I saw and felt was moving from a forgan driver to the first biggest big bertha, that was a huge step up for me. The shaft, crispness of the hit and the reliability of the club outweighed the cost over my previous 30 quid driver which was great while it lasted but I actually managed to shear the face off the rest of the club construction. Was it me forcing it off or was it the quality showing through? I know it wasnt me...

 

[HomerJSimpson]

That was the point I was trying to get over in my post. Ultimately we have a choice to pay top dollar for the big names or buy cheaper and to keep clubs for a period of time or change them regularly. I have in the past been a brand snob and wanted the latest gear but as Brendy points ut the change in technology hasn't progressed that much in the last few years.

There is a world of difference between a forged made club with the inherent additional costs of that process compared to a mass produced cast head. That said both cast and forged share a stream of other component parts (grips, shafts etc) which are all manufactured separately and finally put together and given company branding. It is the bigger retail outlets (AG, Nevada Bob etc) in much the same way as supermarkets who are arguably the worst culprits with their buying ability but who are rarely as competitive as online stores with less overheads (rent, utilities, wages etc). Sadly this means the little guy like the PGA pro has the toughest job as they are already on wafer thin margins and cannot buy from the manufacturer at the same discounted rates.

Ironically it is the very same PGA pro that could probably offer the best all round service in terms of advice, C/F and after sales service but is usually the last port of call for the majority when buying new sticks. I am as guilty as everyone but it is surely a compelling argument that everything that glitters is not gold (or chrome finish!)

 

[muttleee]

The golf companies charge what they can get away with.

As an earlier poster pointed out, Apple charge 99c (about 64p at today's rates) for a download in the USA and 74p for the same download in Europe. I gather it used to be 79p in the UK but pressure from regulators etc forced Apple to cut prices here. I imagine much the same thing happens with golf retailers.

In fact, it would be interesting to see a piece in GM comparing deals in the US and UK just to see what sort of difference there really is. We've all heard of people who bring clubs back from a holiday in Florida or somewhere and claim to have saved a fortune. How true are those stories..?

 

[brendy]

Yeeeeears ago when I had a few quid (no family, mortgage etc) I paid 1000 dollars for a set of 4-pw x12 irons. They wern't available in the uk and for a few weeks they were worth more than what I had paid for them initially though once used they are as valuable as a second hand yellow pinnacle gold.
I dont think its worth it any more unless its something not available on the local market, and then, how do you know you will benefit from them in the first place??

 

[Twire]

I've just read Brendy's post with interest. Being in manufacturing I have a slightly different slant on things.

There is still an awfull lot of money to be made with selling golf clubs. Notice I didn't say manufacturing, as in a previous post, I still stand by the manufacturer getting the smalest cut.

Raw material, now I would be shocked if the total cost of material in say a regular 7 iron was more than about 3-4 quid, that includes raw material in the grip, shaft, head and any tungsten carbide insert weights. The main manufacturing cost would be labour, and even this is quite a small percentage of the end cost now that most manufacturers are going to china.

R&D this is the area that has moved forward the quickest. Clubs are now designed on 3D cad packages and solid works software. This lets you simulate a lot of the clubs functions, arodynamics, sweet spots etc. Once the bods are happy this can then be transfered to a CAM package then onto a CNC machine and a prototype club can be machined and fitted to a shaft within hours. There is also something called "rapid prototyping" where you can actually "grow" the club head. This is a machine that holds iron fillings then a laser is fired into them very accuratly all done by computor to produce the club head. All these new methods cut down the man hours in producing prototypes. So with new technology the R&D is a lot quicker easier and cheeper.

So in todays world I think the manufacturing cost is probably less than it was 10 years ago. Its the greedy middle men that puts the prices up.

 

[SammmeBee]

What are people's conceptions of how much a 'Pro' makes on a set of irons....£5, £50, £100, £250??

You would be suprised I think......

 

[madandra]

I would say that AG make roughly £100 per set with a club pro making £50-£60 on a set priced at £299.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

I think it depends on the purchase price form the manufacturer. The reason AG are so keen to flog you Nicklaus and Hogan gear is that these are the cheapest for them to buy in and so represnt the biggest profit marging. There is virtually no profit in TM or Callaway clubs irrespective of the RRP to the punter as they are charged significantly more per set by TM and Callaway themselves.

As for PGA pros, I would be surprised if there is a profit of more than £20-50 per set. In fact they probably do better haggling a deal with a club member and selling their clubs 2nd hand.

 

[Twire]

What are people's conceptions of how much a 'Pro' makes on a set of irons....£5, £50, £100, £250??

You would be suprised I think......

I would think it's in the regeon of 30-40%

The last clubs I bought as follows, now these are from an independant pro who stocks Taylor Made (and I must say, he is a mate of a mate)

2 years ago TM superquad Retail £235 I bought for £185

This year TM CGB Max 3 & 5 woods Retail £199 I bought for £149

This year TM CGB Max #3 & #4 rescue Retail £129 I bought for £99

Xmas prezzie for misses twire TM Burner Driver Retail £149 I bought for £99

Now I know he was doing me a deal with these clubs, but at the same time he was still making a profit, and I must say he had to order the CGB Max clubs in especially for me. So I think there is a healthy profit to be made by the pro, but I do appreciate he also has overheads.

 

[viscount17]

I'll guess at 20% - 30%.
I don't know if it works this way in golf but in other areas the price the pro pays can depend on how much he buys (over time) from his supplier. So there may be an advantage in his giving a good price now and then as it keeps his order book active.

 

[Cernunnos]

I have thought about this subject for ages now and was considering writing a piece for the magazine I'm still thinking of starting. I realise that R&D costs do account for a reasonable % of the cost and that the big boys are currently working on their 2010 and beyond models so have an initial outlay. There is also the huge cost of advertising especially in the US to persuade Joe 28 handicap that buying the X driver will give him another 20 yards and guarantee that he will find the fairway every time.

There are retainers to be paid to the top pros for using the equipment. Think of the TW and Nike deal and Padraig and Wilson and you can see that thre is a price to be paid. This filters down then amongst the top 100 in the world and then to a much lesser degree onto other tours and finally to club pros.

There is the volatile market forces to take into acoount and the pressures on worldwide currencies. These fluctuations will all get passed on down the line from manufacturer, via the glut of middle men to the point of sale and the final RRP and ultimately our wallets.

The newbies like MD, Benross etc are selling their products in a smart way without the blurb of media attention. Can you imagine how thin a monthly opy of Todays Golfer would be if they weren't bigging up TM, Callaway, Nike and Ping every month? These new guys are relying on the quality of the product to sell itself. A risky strategy but one that seems to be working at the moment.

At the end of the day the consumer has the choice. You can pay the RRP for a big name knowing that whilst you are buying a quality product from a reputable company and will have the after sale service should something go wrong, you are probably paying a finite % over the odds simply because you are buying the NAME. There is the choice to buy budget brands (which is why Slazenger K1 drivers do sell).

Personally I am a golfing brand snob and that is my choice. I like certain makes of club, ball, bags, shoes and clothing and choose those because I feel good and feel I get some benefit from my equipment. That said I'm like everyone else and apart from golf begrudge paying over the odds for anything from my monthly food shop to a new TV or a car. Whatever sector you look at there is always someone looking for a cut and it will ever be so.

:Thumbsup:

Brandsnob... Yeah I like that... Actually I am like that.

Though there is another type of brand snobbery & that the snob that knows what is good yet under-rated & hence at the right price.

This is why certain budget makes are actually worth spending some time trying out & investing in when you know what they are good at. And its this sort of smugness the knowledgeble can rest easy in the knowledge that they know something greenhorn hacker may not know & buys into the Hype some budget club makers go through to try & promote a substandard item.

Infact some of these better made budget brands that the smug-snob will buy can actually be better than some of the suposed premium brands.

This is why a lot of us will read about as much product knowledge as we can in various forms & make our own minds up from our own testing of some of these products ourselves.

Snob or nay.