Wet weather rule question

[barrybridges]

A quick question.

Yesterday I played a round at my local club and for some reason seemed to find just about every bunker on the course. Most of these were completely flooded to a depth of around 4 inches.

In this situation, I would treat the water as 'casual water' and drop it into a 'dry' spot in the bunker, but on each occasion this made the lie much much more difficult, because by the nature of each bunker's slope, the only dry spots were higher up towards the face of the bunker which would require a higher angle of attack to get the ball out.

I estimate I 'lost' about 3 shots this way, because rather than wedging it onto the green I either saw the ball bounce back into the bunker when I attempted it, or else played more conservatively and wedged backwards onto the fairway onto a lie where it could then be pitched onto the green more carefully.

What do the rules say about this? Was I right to place the ball back in the bunker, on a dry patch, or am I entitled to move the ball out of the bunker (further away) on the nearest available grass - assuming the bunker is virtually completely flooded?

I've found conflicting evidence. The R&A had a section on their website suggesting I could move it out of the bunker, but for a 1 shot penalty, but it also says I need to drop it in the bunker if possible. But then it says that I can't take relief (e.g. drop shot outside of the bunker) because the ball is not 'unplayable' - it's instead subject to the water hazard rule).

Am I being stupid or is there a simple answer?

 

[StrangelyBrown]

I thought it was two club lengths from your nearest point of relief not nearer the hole? I don't think you need to drop in the bunker.

 

[barrybridges]

I thought it was two club lengths from your nearest point of relief not nearer the hole? I don't think you need to drop in the bunker.

I'm not sure that applies - the ball is not deemed 'unplayable' per se, but subject to a 'casual water' hazard instead. Some sources I've read say it needs to be dropped in the bunker, others say as you've said above.

http://www.randa.org/en/RandA/News/News/...d%20bunker.aspx

This suggests that if you drop it outside then you incur a 1 shot penalty, but doesn't make reference as to whether you MUST drop it outside, if that makes sense? Do you have to drop it in the bunker first and only if the bunker is totally full of water (e.g. no visible sand) then this rule applies (drop outside and take penalty)?

 

[USER1999]

You get nearest point of relief not nearer the hole, within the bunker, or, a 1 shot penalty if you have to drop it outside the bunker. Tough, but that's the rules. Unless the flooded bunker is marked GUR, in which case you get a free drop.

 

[Doh]

Yes Murph is right, another point being that if you have to take a drop within the bunker you have to take full relief. If you can't then it's a penalty drop outside the bunker.

 

[fundy]

you sure about full relief Doh?, i thought you were able to drop at point of best relief (assuming no where in the hazard of full relief) ie the point where there is the shallowest casual water

 

[MashieNiblick]

This is what rule 25-1b (relief from abnormal ground conditions - which covers casual water) says

(ii) In a Bunker: If the ball is in a bunker, the player must lift the ball and drop it either:
(a) Without penalty, in accordance with Clause (i) above, except that the nearest point of relief must be in the bunker and the ball must be dropped in the bunker or, if complete relief is impossible, as near as possible to the spot where the ball lay, but not nearer the hole, on a part of the course in the bunker that affords maximum available relief from the condition; or
(b) Under penalty of one stroke, outside the bunker keeping the point where the ball lay directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped, with no limit to how far behind the bunker the ball may be dropped.

Decision 25-1b8 says

25-1b/8 Player's Options When Bunker Completely Covered by Casual Water

The player may play the ball as it lies or:
drop the ball in the bunker without penalty at the nearest point, not nearer the hole, where the depth of the casual water is least – Rule 25-1b(ii)(a); or
drop the ball behind the bunker under penalty of one stroke – Rule 25-1b(ii)(b); or 
deem the ball unplayable and proceed in accordance with Rule 28.

So looks like Fundy is right and you can take the best available relief, if full relief in the bunker isn't possible.

I didn't know that!

 

[barrybridges]

Thanks for your replies - so basically what I was doing was right, although I did have the option to drop outside of the bunker and take a penalty.

 

[Leftie]

If you want free relief then you must drop (DROP not place) in the bunker. If you cannot do that then you drop outside with a 1 shot penalty.

Note - You also have the option of declaring the ball unplayable and replaying the previous stroke from the original position, again under a 1 shot penalty.

And please guys and gals, let's not now have yet another protracted whinge about how unfair the rules are over standing water in bunkers.

It's a hazard, you put it there, tough!

 

[richart]

Bit grumpy after your snooze Leftie ?

 

[Leftie]

Not yet, although the afternoon is young.

btw you don't want to be so rude, cheeky young whippersnapper

 

[MashieNiblick]

Just a little addition.

I think my extract from the rules might be a touch misleading. The relief section of rule 25-1 starts by saying

"b. Relief
Except when the ball is in a water hazard or a lateral water hazard, a player may take relief from interference by an abnormal ground condition as follows: ..."

Then goes on to the bit I quoted.

From this it seems you MAY, but don't have to, take relief, so it seems you do also have the option to play it as it lies. However if you take relief then you must do so as provided for in 25-1b(ii)

Hope that's right (and clearer). Bloomin' Rules. So complicated sometimes!

Page is here.

http://www.randa.org/en/Rules-and-Amateu...mp;subRuleNum=1

Also worth checking the explanation of maximum available relief - decision 25-1b/5

 

[viscount17]

don't know who wrote the rules but I bet he hasn't read them.

in every other situation I've come across the rule always states that you must take 'full relief from the condition', but come to this one and suddenly it's 'maximum available relief' even though you can still be impeded by the condition by doing so.

 

[MashieNiblick]

I think it's because otherwise you might have to drop out of the bunker and take a penalty even though in other circumstances relief from abnormal ground conditions/casual water wouldn't result in a penalty. Remember even if just your heels were in the water that wouldn't be classed as the "nearest point of relief" as the condition would still be interfering with your stance (see definition of nearerst point of relief). So it seems to fair to me.

 

[SammmeBee]

don't know who wrote the rules but I bet he hasn't read them.

in every other situation I've come across the rule always states that you must take 'full relief from the condition', but come to this one and suddenly it's 'maximum available relief' even though you can still be impeded by the condition by doing so.

It's only for casual water in bunkers....basically so you are not forced to take a penalty drop o/s the bunker - find the shallowest bit of water and drop it in there.....in all honestly though if the bunkers are that bad you shouldn't be playing at all....let alone any like a competition!!!

 

[shagster]

it could be worse, played the kingfisher course at mannings heath a couple of years ago, and there were a pair of mallard swimming on the green side bunker next to the 8th, bunker completely flooded and several feet deep, glad i missed that one.
shagster

 

[USER1999]

Played Sandy Lodge last year, hit towards one of the greens, and got the big splash. Get up there, and there are 3 bunkers in a row. All completely full of water. The outer two marked as GUR, and the middle one not. So I have to take the penalty drop. Fair?

 

[barrybridges]

I was reading up a bit more on this last night (don't ask!) and I guess the reasoning is that 'you put the ball in there so you deserve to be penalised'. If the only way of playing would be to incur a 1-shot penalty and put you outside of the bunker then it's a purpousive rule.

Sadly following all the rain we've had recently most of the bunkers were pretty deep in water. I had to scare a goose off one of the tees as well (which was fine, except it was a bit adamant that it didn't want to move).

 

[robbest3offthetee]

What i cannot understand is,If the bunkers are full of water, why is there not a local rule in place that they are out of play,surely this makes more sense...

 

[bobmac]

What i cannot understand is,If the bunkers are full of water, why is there not a local rule in place that they are out of play,surely this makes more sense...

They can