Virtually certain

[sawtooth]

When a ball goes into a hazard you have to be virtually certain.

What then is the ruling in this scenario?

Player tees off par 3 and wasn’t sure if ball is in the green side bunker , water hazard or rough so hits a provisional.

Player gets up to the green and a player from the group ahead said that the ball definitely went into the water hazard.

Can player take a drop?

He wasn’t sure on the tee nor were any of the FC’s on the tee . He played a provisional which he wouldn’t do if he was sure it went into the hazard.

 

[rulefan]

A player may change his mind when arrives at the scene and has got more information, which includes evidence from a spectator or other player.

 

[sawtooth]

Ball can be lost in the rough or hazard (without seeing it go in there) hence provisional.

I did not know that you can go from being very unsure to virtually certain due to a spot from a player outside your group. Good to know.

 

[sawtooth]

The rough is high enough not to find it.

Ball could be in the water ( lost) because no one saw it go in so you can’t take a drop.

 

[Foxholer]

Rewind.

You said he hit a provisional because he didn't know if it was in the bunker, the water or the rough.

So on exactly what basis did he hit the provisional?

You can't hit a provisional if you think it's in the bunker.
You can't hit a provisional if you think it's in the water.

Was the rough 6 feet deep?

So, without the info from the group ahead - that it was definitely in the water - what would you have suggested he did when got to where the ball should have been and couldn't find it?

The highlighted 'think's should be 'know's, otherwise a provisional is allowed.

 

[Colin L]

If he thinks it could be lost in jungle near a penalty area he can hit a provisional, if he then finds out it's in the penalty area he can abandon the provisional.

But I don't see how how possibly being "in a bunker or the rough" gives justification for hitting a provisional?

Have you never lost a ball in the rough?

 

[backwoodsman]

... and wasn’t sure if ball is in the green side bunker , water hazard or rough so hits a provisional....

To answer Traminator, the clue is in the question. Given what was said above, it's clear the player hasn't a scoobie as to where the ball is. Which is as good a definition of "lost" as one could wish for.

 

[Imurg]

IS the ball in the water or bunker - no he can't
Could the ball be in the rough and potentially lost - surely Yes.
OK , it may be in the bunker or the water but it may be in the rough and unless you're certain of either of the former then a provo is OK.

 

[Imurg]

Yes, exactly my point "think it's in the rough AND LOST" which is the small but important difference from "we didn't know if it was in the water, bunker or rough".

Arguably, if your ball is in any rough it could, potentially, be lost...

 

[rulefan]

What does that answer?
I'm asking about the reason for hitting the provisional, 2 of the likely destinations don't allow that.

If either of those destinations was known to be the location of the ball you are correct. The rule says if "the ball might be lost outside a penalty area". The rough was not in the penalty area and the ball might have been in it. As the player didn't know where it was, he was entitled to play a provisional.

He didn't know it was in a penalty area. He didn't know it wasn't in a penalty area. It might have been in or outside.

 

[rulefan]

probably 99% of the time we don't hit a provisional just because our ball isn't on the fairway.

And that is a reason why many rounds take longer than they should. It's called 'the walk of shame' not because the player has lost a ball but because of the time wasted by going back to the tee.

 

[rulefan]

I don't think I have ever refereed in any (medal play) competition where at least one player hasn't had to be given a lift back by a ref in a buggy because the didn't play a provisional.
The rough at your course must be pretty friendly. If you look a the posts on this and other boards re search times, it would suggest that a lot of time is spent searching for and not finding, balls in the rough.

 

[DickInShorts]

No I don't think that "many" rounds take longer, I can't remember the last time I saw anyone walking back.
We all know that to actually lose a ball in the rough when we don't think it's likely to be lost is extremely rare. How many people play courses where you need to hit a provisional every time you roll off the fairway? Would be horrendous.

Well I play 3 or 4 times a week and have to wait TWICE in the last 3 weeks for people doing the Walk of Shame

Both times their excuse for not playing provisional was - “I thought we’d find it.”

 

[sawtooth]

Yes, if you believe it could be lost in the rough, hit the provisional.
But as we all know, there's rough and there's rough, probably 99% of the time we don't hit a provisional just because our ball isn't on the fairway.

Whether you think it’s lost in the rough or not, if you get to the green and don’t find the ball what then?

You can’t assume it’s in the water (even though it likely is) , then you have to play another one. Hence provisional.

The length of the rough is immaterial isn’t it? I’ve had it said many times before that you cannot say it must be in the water because it can’t be seen on the fairway or in the rough.

Surely just searching in areas other than the water implies player is not certain where ball went?

Or does that help the player arrive at the virtually certain decision? ?

 

[Foxholer]

Without info, it's a lost ball, surely you know that?
...

Yes. Of course I do!

...
No, a provisional is not allowed on the basis you think your ball has gone into water or a bunker.

So you'd have him walk to the area, search for 3 mins, then traipse back to the tee? When, knowing there's a possibility of losing it in the (long) rough, he could (should!!) have played a provisional! Absolutely daft!

The provisional was played quite validly according to the rule - as possibly lost in the rough. I agree that a PB is not available if simply for ball possibly in Penalty Area (or OB).

Edit: As per Sawtooth's post above...The 'hairier' question would be...What should have happened if guys on the Green hadn't confirmed that ball had gone into the water?! That possibility/likelihood would suggest, to me, that the rough, presumably, kept long to prevent balls simply rolling into the water, should be designated as part of the WH. That way player can choose whether to play the ball as it lies, if found, or take relief under penalty, if not. Of course, that rough area could be cleaned up so that it would be obvious that a ball not found outside the water was in the water.

The entire hole arrangement seems a bit unsatisfactory/forced.

 

[Imurg]

Surely the point is that the player thinks it may be lost outside the bunker/water..therefore he has a right to play a provo.

 

[PhilTheFragger]

If in doubt play a provo
It takes seconds and potentially saves a lot of time later

Really don’t see why we are arguing about this

 

[rulefan]

When it might be lost on the course, where is the only criterion. If it is not a penalty area, play a provisional.

 

[Colin L]

Nobody's disagreeing with that.
If the OP said "lost in the rough" I wouldn't have queried it.

Read the rule again. It tells you you may play a provisional if your ball might be lost other than a penalty area. That ‘s what the OP legitimately thought was the case. Nothing there to discuss.

 

[Foxholer]

No, you've missed the point.
He didn't say he thinks it could be "lost in long rough" he thinks it could be "in the water, the bunker or the rough".
...

Rulefan's post (17) answers that! As does ColinL's post above!