Er, you can play provisional balls in competitions, if there is a chance that your original ball is lost or out of bounds!
Virtually Certain - some maths
- Thread starter Ian_S
- Start date
Colin L
Tour Winner
The special local rule applies on a long par-3 hole with a water hazard in a dip on the right hand side that is not visible from the tee, so it's difficult to know or be virtually certain that the ball has gone in. It's a hole that often causes hold ups when the course is busy, so playing a provisional ball helps to save time, by not having to walk back if you can't account for the original ball. Seems like a good idea to me!
Going back to this, your description of the hole on which you have this local rule, there is a bit missing that is vital to make sense of and justify the LR. Duncan drew your attention to it, but the point has not been answered.
When you look at this water hazard, what is it about its nature and surrounds that mean that a ball not found will be, with virtual certainty, in the hazard?
As your description stands, all we know is that the water hazard is out of sight from the tee, meaning there is uncertainty about whether a ball might be in it. That is to say, the ball might be lost outside it which means that a provisional ball may be played under the Rules. There has to be that additional factor - that if you don't find your ball it must be in the hazard.
Colin L
Tour Winner
It's a shallow pond in a dip, which is full of tall reeds. Little chance of finding a ball that goes into the middle of it. Also usually some quite long rough on the far bank. :mmm:
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Colin L
Tour Winner
It's not what is in the hazard that matters, but what is outside it. Is there no possibility that a ball could be lost anywhere in the surrounding area?
Er! What don't you understand about quite long rough (and an avenue of trees if you are far enough off line)? As far as I am aware the special local rule only applies because the water hazard is out of sight from the tee.
chrisd
Major Champion
We have a pond to the right of our first which can't be seen from the tee, i was playing the first extra hole in the scratch knockout last year and hit towards it, and can easily reach it, with a decent drive. My opponent did the same, we found his ball and couldn't find mine, I conceded at that point as I couldn't be certain or virtually certain that it was in the hazard but I could easily, and probably should gave played a provisional.
In my opinion Delc's club are wrong to have a local rule when the rules of golf cover the situation adequately
In my opinion Delc's club are wrong to have a local rule when the rules of golf cover the situation adequately
PhilTheFragger
Provider of Entertainment for the Golfing Gods 🙄
Played at Gerrards Cross with a customer last week
On the 18th he put his 2nd shot into the brook that guards the green, we all saw the splash and commiserated.
We were certain that his ball was in the hazard.
However when we got up there, his ball is over the other side of the brook about 5 yards from the green, sitting pretty.
It obviously bounced out, and this can happen, water at pace is a hard surface and weird stuff can and does happen,
On the 18th he put his 2nd shot into the brook that guards the green, we all saw the splash and commiserated.
We were certain that his ball was in the hazard.
However when we got up there, his ball is over the other side of the brook about 5 yards from the green, sitting pretty.
It obviously bounced out, and this can happen, water at pace is a hard surface and weird stuff can and does happen,
Colin L
Tour Winner
Er! What don't you understand about quite long rough (and an avenue of trees if you are far enough off line)? As far as I am aware the special local rule only applies because the water hazard is out of sight from the tee.
I would have been utterly outstanding - awesome even - at understanding long rough and an avenue of trees ....... if they had been mentioned in your description.
I take it that this means a ball could easily be lost in the rough or the trees, in which case you do not know or have virtual certainty a ball is in the hazard. And in that case, the local rule is inappropriate since it is only for use where if a ball cannot be found in the area then it must be in the hazard.
As Chris rightly says, the Rules allow you to play a provisional ball in the circumstances you describe. No local rule is required, and certainly not one the requirements of which are not met.
I would have been utterly outstanding - awesome even - at understanding long rough and an avenue of trees ....... if they had been mentioned in your description.
I take it that this means a ball could easily be lost in the rough or the trees, in which case you do not know or have virtual certainty a ball is in the hazard. And in that case, the local rule is inappropriate since it is only for use where if a ball cannot be found in the area then it must be in the hazard.
As Chris rightly says, the Rules allow you to play a provisional ball in the circumstances you describe. No local rule is required, and certainly not one the requirements of which are not met.
Suggest you go back and read Post #29 in this thread, or the R&A Rules of Golf Appendix I, Part B 1 if you prefer. Our Club Committee obviously thought that the appropriate conditions applied to this hole (15th at Batchworth Park).
If your ball plops into the middle of a large lake that is clearly in view, then you can know or be virtually certain that it is in the water hazard. Other situations may be somewhat less certain!
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chrisd
Major Champion
If your ball plops into the middle of a large lake that is clearly in view, then you can know or be virtually certain that it is in the water hazard. Other situations may be somewhat less certain!
So your committee change the rules so that anyone, not finding their ball, saves a shot that they would otherwise have added although it's against the best interests of anyone who hits a good shot and finds their ball!
They have invoked an R&A approved local rule, so what is your problem? :mmm:
chrisd
Major Champion
Lazy decision by the committee.
Someone gains a shot that their not entitled to without that local rule, they could win the club championship by a shot, I don't think it's fair to the rest of the field - just my opinion!
Why? If they find their ball outside the water hazard, or playable from the water hazard, then no penalty. Otherwise a one stroke penalty will apply as normal.
palindromicbob
Tour Winner
Where is the shot gained?
I think you are letting the myth that a provisional always finds an A1 position in the middle of the fairway cloud your opinion.
Now imagine this scenario if they played under the rules without the local one invoked.
Play a provisional because they are unsure the ball is in the hazard.
Duff it 50 yards. They then take 2 more strokes to find the fairway and reach the area where the original is likely to have gone.
Now they go looking but they are informed by a group who saw the ball go in that it is actually in the hazard, or they find it in the hazard and can not play it.
Because of this they now abandon the provisional and go back to the tee. They then plant one out of the screws down the middle of the fairway.
There are now in a better position with 3 strokes and followed the rules to the letter. Had the local rule been invoked they would have to continue with the provisional having taken 5 to reach the fairway.
I think you are letting the myth that a provisional always finds an A1 position in the middle of the fairway cloud your opinion.
Now imagine this scenario if they played under the rules without the local one invoked.
Play a provisional because they are unsure the ball is in the hazard.
Duff it 50 yards. They then take 2 more strokes to find the fairway and reach the area where the original is likely to have gone.
Now they go looking but they are informed by a group who saw the ball go in that it is actually in the hazard, or they find it in the hazard and can not play it.
Because of this they now abandon the provisional and go back to the tee. They then plant one out of the screws down the middle of the fairway.
There are now in a better position with 3 strokes and followed the rules to the letter. Had the local rule been invoked they would have to continue with the provisional having taken 5 to reach the fairway.
chrisd
Major Champion
Why? If they find their ball outside the water hazard, or playable from the water hazard, then no penalty. Otherwise a one stroke penalty will apply as normal.
So, If they find their ball and it's not in the water hazard the local rule is irrelevant because it's the ball in play and no gain is made and his next shot is number 2, if it's in the water hazard and he finds it and takes the drop he is playing 3 no problem at that point
If they have the local rule and he doesn't find his ball he is playing 3 from the drop irrespective of where his ball actually is, but at my club, where we also have a blind water hazard (from the first tee) he would be playing his provisional or strolling back to the tee (in most cases), if he doesn't find his ball which means his next shot would be his 4th at your place finding or, not finding, the ball always means he is playing 3 from a scenario that most other places would be playing 3 or 4 with the rules of golf dictating which
So, given the facts, if two players playing your hole and are vying for the club championship and one hits towards the water hazard and one in the opposite direction ie away from it, and they both walk down, neither player finds their ball then the one heading for the hazard drops under a 1 shot penalty, and therefore gains a shot from the other who goes back and plays 3 off the tee! The guy who got the local rule in his favour then wins the club championship, thanks to the committee!
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chrisd
Major Champion
Firstly Bob, most clubs won't have the local rule. It's not for the rule makers to assume someone is going to play a good or bad provisional that's not considered on any other incident where you can play a provisional ball
They can play their provisional up to where there first ball is likely to have gone. If someone, say on an adjacent fairway, saw their first ball enter the water hazard they can abandon their provisional and play 3 from a drop even if their ball is not found in the hazard, or found but not playable under the known, or virtual certainty provision relating to water hazards.
The shot is gained simply because of the difference between 3 off the tee or a drop by the hazard that is for 2
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Your provisional is still 3 from wherever you play it! If you don't play it off the tee you may gain a bit of distance, but that's all.
chrisd
Major Champion
But a drop from a hazard where you've no certainty that your ball went in is only 2
Colin L
Tour Winner
Suggest you go back and read Post #29 in this thread, or the R&A Rules of Golf Appendix I, Part B 1 if you prefer. Our Club Committee obviously thought that the appropriate conditions applied to this hole (15th at Batchworth Park).
If your ball plops into the middle of a large lake that is clearly in view, then you can know or be virtually certain that it is in the water hazard. Other situations may be somewhat less certain!
Del, please try not to sound so patronising.
Of course I read your post in which you said
One water hazard is completely hidden, so we have the special local rule on that hole only which allows you to play a 2nd ball provisionally, even if you are pretty sure from the length and trajectory that the original ball has gone in. The specimen local rule reads .....
Excuse me for not seeing the trees or the long grass in there.
As to the provisions for the local rule your club has in place, I'm familiar enough with the requirements for using it. The critical one that is missing from your situation is that the hazard should be such that if a ball is not found, it must be in the water hazard.
(ii) if the original ball is not found, it is known or virtually certain that it is in the water hazard,
If you have long grass and trees outside the hazard where a ball might be lost, it does not meet this requirement and the local rule has been wrongly put in place. That the hazard is hidden from the tee is not, in itself, adequate reason for having the LR.
