Leeway with 'virtually certain' ?

[Backsticks]

As above, in stroke play, other players have a responsibility to protect the field (all the other players in the competition who expect the competition to be played by the Rules). In this case, other players should tell the player that they believe the procedure was incorrect and that they will bring it to the attention of the Committee. The Committee will then investigate and make a ruling.

The procedure isnt incorrect. This isnt someone dropping on the wrong side of a path, repairing a pitch mark off the green before they play etc. The procedure is followed in that the player considers it virtually certain that the ball crossed into the hazard, and so is going to take relief from the red stake line for a penalty shot.

 

[Swango1980]

The procedure isnt incorrect. This isnt someone dropping on the wrong side of a path, repairing a pitch mark off the green before they play etc. The procedure is followed in that the player considers it virtually certain that the ball crossed into the hazard, and so is going to take relief from the red stake line for a penalty shot.

Are you simply suggesting that the Committee can never make a judgement because they were not there, thus the player whose ball it is makes the final call?

I would suspect there would be many incidents the call would be simple. If the PA is surrounded by rough, for example, it would seem perfectly plausible the ball could be lost in rough, and Committee could determine it would be impossible to know with VC it is in PA from where ball was hit. The player would have a tough job convincing them otherwise.

 

[Steven Rules]

The procedure is followed in that the player considers it virtually certain

The test isn't whether the player considers it virtually certain. The test is whether it is known or virtually certain.

The original post asked: "is it actually breaking a rule if you simply adopt a position of saying you are virtually certain because it suits you to do so ?" The answer is emphatically "YES!"

 

[clubchamp98]

Pretty sure 95% lies between zero and 100%.

95% is not certain.
100% is certain

 

[Swango1980]

95% is not certain.
100% is certain

That is why we call it "virtually" certain

 

[clubchamp98]

That is why we call it "virtually" certain

Can you be virtually certain.?

Certain means without dought. 100%.
Virtually certain is a contradiction.

only the player knows how they hit the ball.
did they flush it.?
In a dispute the comittiee basically have to call them a liar if he claims he is virtually certain when there is a margin for error.
Most golfers I know would not go to the comittiee and trust the players they play with.

 

[Steven Rules]

Certain means without dought. 100%.
Virtually certain is a contradiction.

Maybe. Maybe not.

Regardless and nevertheless, "known or virtually certain" is a defined term in the Rules, supplemented by clarification in a number of areas throughout the Rules.

Unfortunately (or fortunately - depending on your perspective) we don't get to pick and choose which Rules and Definitions we will abide by. If people are uncomfortable with that philosophy, or think a Rule is 'wrong', they should probably contact their national association and get them to elevate the issue to the R&A/USGA.

 

[rulie]

Can you be virtually certain.?

Certain means without dought. 100%.
Virtually certain is a contradiction.

only the player knows how they hit the ball.
did they flush it.?
In a dispute the comittiee basically have to call them a liar if he claims he is virtually certain when there is a margin for error.
Most golfers I know would not go to the comittiee and trust the players they play with.

The Committee just needs to get it right according to the information they gather. Nobody gets called a "liar", players can make incorrect judgements/assumptions.

 

[Colin L]

Can you be virtually certain.?

Certain means without dought. 100%.
Virtually certain is a contradiction.

only the player knows how they hit the ball.
did they flush it.?
In a dispute the comittiee basically have to call them a liar if he claims he is virtually certain when there is a margin for error.
Most golfers I know would not go to the comittiee and trust the players they play with.

That is a fundamental misunderstanding of how rulings are made in accordance with the Rules. it is absolutely clear that the committee decides.

 

[salfordlad]

There is some excellent rules guidance above. And there is some of the opposite, suggestions/claims that a player can simply choose to decide their ball is lost in the PA so PA relief is available because their own opinion determines it to be so. Hopefully, readers can recognize the difference and will call out poor behaviour on the course.

Perhaps the following will be useful to some - a published Q/A from the USGA Facebook rules site (complete with the question writer's mis-spellings).

Our course has many fairways outlined by woods. There is also quite a bit of elevation change. The woods are marked as red staked hazzards. On many tee shots, you hit balls that seem to be going into woods but due to elevation change you don’t actually see it go in. Let’s say I go up and cannot find the ball. “Known” or “virtually certain” are strong terms that seem ellusive in this context. Looking for the ball outside of the hazzard at all seems to run counter to ultimately arriving at “knowing” it is in the hazzard. Can you add any context to these cases?
USGA RESPONSE
Addressing the question: Known or virtually certain is a defined term that places 95% certainty the ball is in the penalty area as the mark to reach. In some cases, you may need to find the ball to reach that level of certainty, in others you may only need to eliminate a small little area to become known or virtually certain and in others you may become aware that a whole area was marked as penalty area and because of that it instantly becomes known the ball is there. There is no one size fits all answer to KVC questions, you must determine, based on what you witnessed, where you've searched and what other possible hiding places remain whether you have eliminated 95% of the possibilities outside the penalty area. A more stringent rule of thumb would be "if the ball could be somewhere else, it is." That doesn't leave much room for error, but can guide you on figuring out whether or not it's really virtually certain the ball is in the penalty area.
Addressing your follow up: Again, each situation is a little different. One approach, if there's a possibility the ball could be outside the penalty area, in order for it to become known or virtually certain the best thing to do would be to search in all the places the ball could be outside the penalty area. If not found, then you would have eliminated the possibility of the ball being anywhere but the penalty area. So searching outside the penalty area does not prevent you from gaining virtual certainty - though it does suggest at the time when you start searching that you do not yet have it.

 

[Voyager EMH]

95% is not certain.
100% is certain

More than 95% certain is certain with regard to this issue in practice and procedure.

 

[Swango1980]

Can you be virtually certain.?

Certain means without dought. 100%.
Virtually certain is a contradiction.

only the player knows how they hit the ball.
did they flush it.?
In a dispute the comittiee basically have to call them a liar if he claims he is virtually certain when there is a margin for error.
Most golfers I know would not go to the comittiee and trust the players they play with.

Of course you can. If I hit my ball into a blind area, and then get to find a PA and everything else fairway, I can be virtually certain it is in PA. However, I can never be 100%, I didn't see it. Maybe a dog ran off with it. Maybe there is one small rabbit hole in entire area I didn't see, and it fell in that.

 

[salfordlad]

Of course you can. If I hit my ball into a blind area, and then get to find a PA and everything else fairway, I can be virtually certain it is in PA. However, I can never be 100%, I didn't see it. Maybe a dog ran off with it. Maybe there is one small rabbit hole in entire area I didn't see, and it fell in that.

If that rabbit hole is in the PA, or the dog picked the ball up from the PA, you're still good for PA relief.

 

[tobybarker]

Can you be virtually certain.?

Certain means without dought. 100%.
Virtually certain is a contradiction.

only the player knows how they hit the ball.
did they flush it.?
In a dispute the comittiee basically have to call them a liar if he claims he is virtually certain when there is a margin for error.
Most golfers I know would not go to the comittiee and trust the players they play with.

virtually pregnant..,..the night before?

 

[chrisd]

virtually pregnant..,..the night before?

No, that more like being on the tee before you've got your club out!

 

[clubchamp98]

That is a fundamental misunderstanding of how rulings are made in accordance with the Rules. it is absolutely clear that the committee decides.

Yes I know the comittiee decides .
but in a dispute if player A is virtually certain his ball is in the PA but player B is virtually certain it isn’t, someone who is virtually certain is wrong.!
but neither is 100% certain, so could be wrong.!

 

[Backsticks]

Yes I know the comittiee decides .
but in a dispute if player A is virtually certain his ball is in the PA but player B is virtually certain it isn’t, someone who is virtually certain is wrong.!
but neither is 100% certain, so could be wrong.!

Do the rules make any reference to whose virtual certainty is the deciding one : the ball hitter, or a playing partner ?

 

[Steven Rules]

Do the rules make any reference to whose virtual certainty is the deciding one : the ball hitter, or a playing partner ?

There is guidance to the Committee in Committee Procedures 6C(6).

 

[Swango1980]

Yes I know the comittiee decides .
but in a dispute if player A is virtually certain his ball is in the PA but player B is virtually certain it isn’t, someone who is virtually certain is wrong.!
but neither is 100% certain, so could be wrong.!

Player B doesn't need to be virtually certain the ball is not in PA. In fact, Player B may well think that the ball is most likely in the PA (more than 50% chance). However, if they also think there could be a fair chance it got lost somewhere else, they can still argue there is no virtual certainty it is in the PA.

 

[Colin L]

Do the rules make any reference to whose virtual certainty is the deciding one : the ball hitter, or a playing partner ?

The player is responsible for knowing the Rules and for applying them to their own game. [1.2a] No other player has any authority over him; no other player can direct him as to what he must or mustn't do. If they do not agree with his action, all they can do is report the matter to the Committee. In stroke play, a marker can refuse to certify a score [3.3b(1)] which leads to Committee involvement. In match play, a player may request a ruling [20.1b]