Upper & Lower Body Disassociation

[One Planer]

I think these two pictures illustrate what I'm looking to achieve. Again using Luke Donald as an example:

Top of backswing:

Weight shift:

Looking at the above images, that little 'bump' to start the weight moving to the left is what I've mis-understood. I don't have to force my hips to do anything in transition. If I move my weight correctly they take care of themselves?

Like Bob says KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid)!

 

[the_coach]

It's the pros job to help the golfer achieve this with as few swing thoughts as possible.
eg
A pupil I had recently had a fast snatchy takeaway, an overswing, he was trying to hit the ball too hard and also had too much weight on the outside of his front foot at the end of the swing.
I simply asked him to finish the swing in a balanced position.
That one swing thought cured all 4 problems.

While some people would like to know every detail of the anatomical swing, the vast majority of the people I teach dont. They just want easy to understand instruction.

To throw a ball, to drive a car or to ride a bike need skills that have to be learned and if taught properly, the person can perform these skills without having to think about how you do it.

I put it to you that the majority of amateur golfers play badly because they don't take lessons and instead, have 50 'fixes' from other golfers running round their head.

All I'm saying is dont fill the pupils head with stuff he doesn't need to know but keep instruction clear, achievable and easy to understand. Then it's up to the pupil to practice what has been taught. Sadly, many don't.

If you teaching a pupil one to one in person, and when I'm coaching one to one, you wouldn't go through such or any detailed description at all, all at once.

Unless they asked you to but even then after you'd only 'work' still with a bit at a time in the best order that particular pupil with the problems they present need.

As you'd be there working with them, both to show movement, and to help the golfer be in the position you want them to feel, by putting them in it, and that, with drills will give them simply, the concept of what they and you are trying to achieve to improve their game.

That's a completely different proposition to a thread on a forum, where someone is asking questions because they want either to understand something a little better and in more depth, or perhaps just because they are a little unsure still and are just want some further clarification and validity of what they have either been asked to do, or are just trying to do stuff on their own, unfortunately some folks circumstances and geographical location mean they are unable to go see a Pro themselves (always the best option).

Giving short tips with no real explanation in the written word on a forum will more than likely lead to more problems for a golfer.

The people on here that don't want to know aren't being forced to read anything, change or do anything to their golf swing if they don't wish too.

But if they don't want to know on such threads as these, why are they here at all. Most people I would guess, hope for some information and help if possible, and because it's something that interests them and want to discuss with others.

People can throw a ball, ride a bike, drive a car up to a point, driving on the freeway, highway a lot, there are many who can't do the last two very well at all.

The golf swing is a much more difficult set of movements that have to be performed at speed in a correctly timed sequence. Those who find that simple and can do it easily and well, from the off, are very fortunate.

 

[bobmac]

If you teaching a pupil one to one in person, and when I'm coaching one to one, you wouldn't go through such or any detailed description at all, all at once.

Unless they asked you to but even then after you'd only 'work' still with a bit at a time in the best order that particular pupil with the problems they present need.

As you'd be there working with them, both to show movement, and to help the golfer be in the position you want them to feel, by putting them in it, and that, with drills will give them simply, the concept of what they and you are trying to achieve to improve their game.

That's a completely different proposition to a thread on a forum, where someone is asking questions because they want either to understand something a little better and in more depth, or perhaps just because they are a little unsure still and are just want some further clarification and validity of what they have either been asked to do, or are just trying to do stuff on their own, unfortunately some folks circumstances and geographical location mean they are unable to go see a Pro themselves (always the best option).

Giving short tips with no real explanation in the written word on a forum will more than likely lead to more problems for a golfer.

The people on here that don't want to know aren't being forced to read anything, change or do anything to their golf swing if they don't wish too.

But if they don't want to know on such threads as these, why are they here at all. Most people I would guess, hope for some information and help if possible, and because it's something that interests them and want to discuss with others.

People can throw a ball, ride a bike, drive a car up to a point, driving on the freeway, highway a lot, there are many who can't do the last two very well at all.

The golf swing is a much more difficult set of movements that have to be performed at speed in a correctly timed sequence. Those who find that simple and can do it easily and well, from the off, are very fortunate.

I can't agree with all of that but then we are all different.
We'll have to agree to disagree

 

[lex!]

It's the pros job to help the golfer achieve this with as few swing thoughts as possible.
eg
A pupil I had recently had a fast snatchy takeaway, an overswing, he was trying to hit the ball too hard and also had too much weight on the outside of his front foot at the end of the swing.
I simply asked him to finish the swing in a balanced position.
That one swing thought cured all 4 problems.

While some people would like to know every detail of the anatomical swing, the vast majority of the people I teach dont. They just want easy to understand instruction.

To throw a ball, to drive a car or to ride a bike need skills that have to be learned and if taught properly, the person can perform these skills without having to think about how you do it.





I put it to you that the majority of amateur golfers play badly because they don't take lessons and instead, have 50 'fixes' from other golfers running round their head.

All I'm saying is dont fill the pupils head with stuff he doesn't need to know but keep instruction clear, achievable and easy to understand. Then it's up to the pupil to practice what has been taught. Sadly, many don't.

Excellent post and great advice. Many thanks.

 

[Foxholer]

Seems to me that there are 2 equally valid approaches being discussed - full explanation and 'trust me, I'm a Pro'. To me, both have (potential) benefits and disadvantages.

I believe it depends on the pupil's desires and needs/capability as to which one might work better - and there may be situations where a switch to the other approach might be required/best.

The key to being a good teacher is not so much actually 'knowing your subject', but finding out the way a particular pupil learns best. Learning how to teach is what the PGA Training Course should be, and I believe is, about.

 

[bobmac]

Golfers learn in 3 different ways.
Ask a golfer at the start what he/she thought of a shot he/she had just hit and the reply will be either
1. It looked good
2. It sounded good
3. It felt good.

1. I would demonstrate the shot/move to no. 1. Learns by watching
2. I would talk more to no. 2. Learns by listening
3. I would put the player into the required position for no. 3. Learns by feel

As I said earlier, some people like to know all there is to know about the bio mechanics of the swing. However, the majority I have come across would be bored stiff in 2 mins

Learning how to teach is what the PGA Training Course should be, and I believe is, about.

Correct

 

[lex!]

Golfers learn in 3 different ways.
Ask a golfer at the start what he/she thought of a shot he/she had just hit and the reply will be either
1. It looked good
2. It sounded good
3. It felt good.

1. I would demonstrate the shot/move to no. 1. Learns by watching
2. I would talk more to no. 2. Learns by listening
3. I would put the player into the required position for no. 3. Learns by feel

As I said earlier, some people like to know all there is to know about the bio mechanics of the swing. However, the majority I have come across would be bored stiff in 2 mins



Correct

I want to know all about the bio mechanics of the swing. When I ask my pro to tell me them, I sort of get the 'shut up and do as I tell you' look. However, in truth, what he tells me to do is one hundred per cent right, one hundred per cent of the time.

 

[the_coach]

Seems to me that there are 2 equally valid approaches being discussed - full explanation and 'trust me, I'm a Pro'. To me, both have (potential) benefits and disadvantages.

I believe it depends on the pupil's desires and needs/capability as to which one might work better - and there may be situations where a switch to the other approach might be required/best.

The key to being a good teacher is not so much actually 'knowing your subject', but finding out the way a particular pupil learns best. Learning how to teach is what the PGA Training Course should be, and I believe is, about.

Absolutely agree, with only one adjunct, you have to know your subject, in order to supply the uncomplicated advice needed to help the pupil/golfer in front of you, at a lesson in a manner right for that particular individual. As you have the person, the personality, their aims, their swing, impact conditions, ball flight and shot patterns, right in front of you and so the approach is, and should be, totally different to a discussion in the written word on a forum.

 

[the_coach]

Golfers learn in 3 different ways.
Ask a golfer at the start what he/she thought of a shot he/she had just hit and the reply will be either
1. It looked good
2. It sounded good
3. It felt good.

1. I would demonstrate the shot/move to no. 1. Learns by watching
2. I would talk more to no. 2. Learns by listening
3. I would put the player into the required position for no. 3. Learns by feel

As I said earlier, some people like to know all there is to know about the bio mechanics of the swing. However, the majority I have come across would be bored stiff in 2 mins



Correct

Wouldn't disagree with any of that, if you have the person/pupil in front of you.

 

[Foxholer]

Absolutely agree, with only one adjunct, you have to know your subject, in order to supply the uncomplicated advice needed to help the pupil/golfer in front of you, at a lesson in a manner right for that particular individual. As you have the person, the personality, their aims, their swing, impact conditions, ball flight and shot patterns, right in front of you and so the approach is, and should be, totally different to a discussion in the written word on a forum.

Again, agree entirely - as I probably do with Bob (I'm a bit dubious about the 'instant assessment', but that works in a written word environment). Seems like there'll be group hugs and high fives soon! A certain famous, Jersey based, coach actually had a disclaimer on the first (or at least an early) page of an early book about the 'written word' need - and that's Slicefixer's reason/excuse for having not published too.

As for subject knowledge, I use the analogy of my brother, a 1st Class Honours (going on PhD) in Quantum Mathematics and my Ex, who's highest qualification was Driver's License (her words, it was actually Teaching Certificate). Brother had pupils, who weren't interested in learning anyway, climbing out of windows. But Ex, 5'2" but capable of reducing 6' 15 y-old bullies to blubbering wretches, could capture a Class's imagination and get them to learn without realising it! I know which one I'd want to explain Gravitons or The Kerr Metric - or even how a Laser or Speed Camera - works though!

 

[JustOne]

I use the analogy of my brother, a 1st Class Honours (going on PhD) in Quantum Mathematics and my Ex, who's highest qualification was Driver's License (her words, it was actually Teaching Certificate). Brother had pupils, who weren't interested in learning anyway, climbing out of windows. But Ex, 5'2" but capable of reducing 6' 15 y-old bullies to blubbering wretches, could capture a Class's imagination and get them to learn without realising it!

Too bad you ended up like your Brother :rofl:

 

[Khamelion]

I can see where both Bobmac and the_coach are coming from, when trying to explain what it is you need to do in a golf swing but I written word form, it is something that can't really be achieved in a few words and the lengthy explanations this thread has are excellent.

Now some people read the thread looking for a quick fix and short reply that says do x, y or z and you problem will be cured, but then they see long explanations of why something does this and leads to the other and come back with the generic reply "I can only think of one thing in my swing, this thread is giving me a headache" but for others the explanations are ideal in filling in the blanks.

The 'others', are likely to be those who are having lessons already and are just looking to confirm what they have been told.

I firmly believe that for myself I would not have got to where I currently am with my swing progress if it were not for lessons, just reading threads like this would not do it for me, I know I would be reading the detailed long posts, would get lost and would probably end up being worse off then before I started. So while there is a great deal of knowledge and information being shared ultimately, learning from others posts is no where near the same as learning from doing and having the instructor in front of you.

The advice given may help those not in lessons, it may not, but for those of us who are having lessons, then these posts are brilliant to have a second and third source confirm what is being taught.

As earlier in this post and in other threads I've read, I'd just like to say thank you to Bobmac, JustOne and the_coach, I have regular lessons with my teacher, who is brilliant and is sorting me out no end and then I come to the forum and after reading some posts in here from the three aforementioned , it's like having 4 people teaching me.

Cheers

 

[JustOne]

^
^
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Fair post :thup: It's a forum, we're SUPPOSED to write about things.

It would be a crap forum if we just replied "Go have a lesson" on every single thread.

Some people like to talk/read about things (books wouldn't exist otherwise), anyone who is not interested in a discussion on a particular thread SHOULD JUST LEAVE THE THREAD :thup:


It's been quite nice here for the past few months.... no real arguments, no whingers, or people that want to 'agree to disagree'.


... and welcome to 'the_coach' - enjoy reading your posts, that is some SERIOUS typing! :thup:

 

[the_coach]

^
^
^
Fair post :thup: It's a forum, we're SUPPOSED to write about things.

It would be a crap forum if we just replied "Go have a lesson" on every single thread.

Some people like to talk/read about things (books wouldn't exist otherwise), anyone who is not interested in a discussion on a particular thread SHOULD JUST LEAVE THE THREAD :thup:


It's been quite nice here for the past few months.... no real arguments, no whingers, or people that want to 'agree to disagree'.


... and welcome to 'the_coach' - enjoy reading your posts, that is some SERIOUS typing! :thup:

Cheers, much appreciated.

 

[chrisd]

I had lesson 3 today, of 8 half hour lessons. I absolutely want to know what any changes are for and what benefit I will derive from making them. I've never been to a pro who hasn't made changes and I've been to a few bad pros who are clearly using their pupils simply to pay the mortgage. A mate of mine says that he had paid out over 4k for lessons with a pro over the years, if that were me I'd have to have a single figure handicap guaranteed!

I can see the merit in Bob, the Coach and JO ways and so long as there's no harm done for anyone on the forum who tries the various swing changes then I'd thank those fellows for their input

 

[One Planer]

I had lesson 3 today, of 8 half hour lessons. I absolutely want to know what any changes are for and what benefit I will derive from making them. I've never been to a pro who hasn't made changes and I've been to a few bad pros who are clearly using their pupils simply to pay the mortgage. A mate of mine says that he had paid out over 4k for lessons with a pro over the years, if that were me I'd have to have a single figure handicap guaranteed!

I can see the merit in Bob, the Coach and JO ways and so long as there's no harm done for anyone on the forum who tries the various swing changes then I'd thank those fellows for their input

:clap:

I've always said that the forum benefits from varied opinion. Inclusive not exclusive so to speak.

Of course opinions will differ, but that doesn't mean opinions are not valid.

 

[lex!]

@Gareth
Hi, with regard to earlier discussions on this topic, there's a good vid on YouTube with Henrik Stenson discussing his revival. Here he talks about using his muscles, rather than his skeleton, in the swing. Obviously he explains it much better than me, and he also demonstrates, and talks about what can happen if hips and frame get involved in the wrong way.

 

[the_coach]

@Gareth
Hi, with regard to earlier discussions on this topic, there's a good vid on YouTube with Henrik Stenson discussing his revival. Here he talks about using his muscles, rather than his skeleton, in the swing. Obviously he explains it much better than me, and he also demonstrates, and talks about what can happen if hips and frame get involved in the wrong way.

Yes, that's what Henrik works on with Pete Cowan, and part of the 'spiral staircase' thinking, as the way the body winds up to the top and then starts down from the lead leg foot. (Think someone mentioned Cowan and the 'staircase' earlier.) Certainly worked for Henrik very, very well in 2013

 

[dsanders9944]

It's best not to over complicate things, I had the same problem as was also told the same thing by my pro but found that I had to think so much about it that I tensed up and was out of sync a lot trying to achieve it. This video helped me a lot

[video=youtube_share;W3fTE2BMxks]http://youtu.be/W3fTE2BMxks[/video]

 

[the_coach]

It's best not to over complicate things, I had the same problem as was also told the same thing by my pro but found that I had to think so much about it that I tensed up and was out of sync a lot trying to achieve it. This video helped me a lot.

Great you found vid this helpful.
The lateral 2",3" hip move towards target is essential before you turn and clear as BD says.

The danger inherent in just concentrating on moving the hip laterally like this, is, it's quite easy to move (slide) the hip laterally too much, so then the hip moves towards target and becomes forward of the outside of your left foot, not what you want at all as it's then impossible to post your left leg properly and turn(clear) your hip left correctly, as the weight gets on the outside of left foot too soon in the downswing.

Better at transition to feel your left foot (lead foot,lead leg) press vertically down which will move the hip laterally the correct amount (without going laterally left too far to soon in a big hip slide) your leg can then straighten (not bow) and you can turn and clear you hip so your hands, arms & club has the space to swing through impact.