Upper & Lower Body Disassociation

[One Planer]

David Leadbetter seems to rate a fast hip action also:

"You've probably heard a golfer use the term "spinout" before. It sounds like a bad thing, but in many cases it's not. It's often a term associated with good players who have quick lower-body action. If they clear their hips too aggressively on the downswing, there are times when the arms and club lag too far behind and they struggle to square the clubface at impact. They feel like they spun out. Although it might produce a block or hook, this type of spinout can result in powerful drives that find the fairway. It's a good thing for average golfers to copy.

Many amateurs incorrectly spin out with the upper body when they start down from the top. The weight shifts away from the target and they swivel around the back leg (above, left). This type of spinout produces a weak hit, usually a slice or a pull, and is the reverse of what you want to feel.

When you start the downswing, you want to move your weight into your front foot and then try to clear your hips hard by rotating them toward the target (above, right). As long as your shoulders and chest are facing the ball at impact, you'll hit some powerful shots with this type of fast hip action."

I think what's going to take me a little getting used to is not using my arms.

I know it sounds daft, but I know what I mean

 

[JustOne]

People hook their drives because they don't turn enough (they stall or don't complete the turn) and their arms take over

People block shots because their lower body turns to fast leaving the top half behind (hands trailing - stuck normally)

It's somewhere in the middle that you need to be.... not super aggressive (trying to turn your hips so damn fast that you can't keep up) and not so sluggishly slow that your upper body infact starts before your hips and you slice the ball!!

 

[One Planer]

People hook their drives because they don't turn enough (they stall or don't complete the turn) and their arms take over

People block shots because their lower body turns to fast leaving the top half behind (hands trailing - stuck normally)

It's somewhere in the middle that you need to be.... not super aggressive (trying to turn your hips so damn fast that you can't keep up) and not so sluggishly slow that your upper body infact starts before your hips and you slice the ball!!

Can't argue with any of that James :thup:

With me, up until recently, moving everything in unison, it's going to be a case of beaking the habbit of involving the arms in transition.

I hit the range at lunch today, despite the heavy wind, found it quite produtive (... Apart from the ball starting bang on line and drifting right on the wind ). Once I break the habbit and allow my downswing to be mainly sequenced by my lower half, I'll be onto a winner ...... It's the breaking of the habbit that will take the time and effort.

 

[Khamelion]

Great thread this, as all that is being discussed is what I'm currently working on with my teacher, and it's great to get others take on the same subject, also knowing I'm not the only one trying to groove a new swing.

 

[the_coach]

I believe Jim McLean grabbed 1 concept described in The Golf Machine, called it the X-Factor and claimed to have discovered/invented it.

He's quite good at that sort of thing - as are quite a few others! Having taught using Old Ball Flight Laws (face aimed at the target) for years, I saw a claim that he's told the world about New ones (face aim governs initial ball direction)!

Or am I just being cynical!

Some of his stuff is really quite good though - the 10 Death Moves (or something like that) is a good series!

Ha yes Mclean, that's what comes of typing/thinking trying to do it fast at 4 in the morning when you've got insomnia. No idea where McQueen came from at least got Doral & blue monster and everything else in order

Never really taken to him McLean that is but to be fair to him, Homer Kelley never mentions the 'X factor' at all in the TGM bible and his photo's in there have a kind of hockey stick shape shape showing the path the hands take in the downswing. Homer does mention the 'hulu' flexibility! of the hips though, perhaps he'd just been to the 'islands'!!

Had the good fortune to be a guest in a talk about golf to some PGA hopefuls aiming for the USPGA given by Sean Foley, he obviously said loads of things. But one interesting note, he was talking about his love of the golf machine and said he wished there could be a do over and Homer could write the book again still putting over his points but in a distilled and much easier way for folks to read it. The fact that Foley said all this about Mr Kelley and TGM totally surprised me. Even though I know, like me, when Foley was around 13, 14 years old he was going to golf lessons with "The Hat" (Gregg McHatton) at Valencia Golf Club (California) himself originally a TGM man who I think was taught at some time by the original and first TGM instructor appointed by Kelley, Mr Ben Doyle.

Before very high speed camera's and Doppler radar trackers it's fair to say that most golf teachers thought that club path had more of an influence of the direction of the ball and face angle less so. Something we've all known now for a while not to be true at all and initial ball direction is governed by face angle or where the club is looking at impact, or to be more precise where the club face is looking at the moment the ball leaves the face something again proved by Doppler and super slow-mo.
Think quite a few people using trackman, super slow-mo realized more or less at the same time about face angle being more important than club path. But as you say McLean (Not McQueen Ha !! is known in the biz as claiming a lot of 'firsts'.

 

[Foxholer]

Before very high speed camera's and Doppler radar trackers it's fair to say that most golf teachers thought that club path had more of an influence of the direction of the ball and face angle less so.

The US ones perhaps/probably. But UK PGA course refers to the 1967/68 Cochran & Stobbs book 'Search for the Perfect Swing'. The Path vs Face 'rules' defined in that book are virtually identical with what Trackman et al demonstrated! Book is seriously outdated in some (equipment related) aspects, but excellent in other regards.

Apologies for the thread-jack guys. Back to Sequencing!

Gareth. Here's an article from an independent guy - who used to be a TGM man but states he has moved somewhat. As he's a (medical) Doctor, he's pretty trustworthy on the bio-mechanics! http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/pivot.htm

Pete Cowen's Spiral Staircase exercise http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O44Ae4nCQXs, in conjunction with the drill of thecoach's might help too.

 

[the_coach]

The US ones perhaps/probably. But UK PGA course refers to the 1967/68 Cochran & Stobbs book 'Search for the Perfect Swing'. The Path vs Face 'rules' defined in that book are virtually identical with what Trackman et al demonstrated! Book is seriously outdated in some (equipment related) aspects, but excellent in other regards.

Apologies for the thread-jack guys. Back to Sequencing!

Gareth. Here's an article from an independent guy - who used to be a TGM man but states he has moved somewhat. As he's a (medical) Doctor, he's pretty trustworthy on the bio-mechanics! http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/pivot.htm

Pete Cowen's Spiral Staircase exercise http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O44Ae4nCQXs, in conjunction with the drill of thecoach's might help too.

Yes sorry Gareth.
I have that book by Alastair Cochran, John Stobbs, not read it for a long time though. Have an original hardback 'The Golfing Machine' with little inscription written in for me by Mr Ben Doyle when I went to see him about 10 years ago, just to talk golf, no lesson, at Quail Lodge, Carmel Valley, not far from me.

PC's spiral staircase served Henrik really well last year!!!! wonder if Westwood's having second thoughts!

 

[One Planer]

Some excellent information on this thread for anyone interested.

Semi-related question regarding uncoilingin transition, with regard soley to the hips.

Is the movmement at transition (To get the weight and hips moving forward) based on a slide or rotation?

 

[bobmac]

What do you do when you throw a ball ?

 

[garyinderry]

Monty's big tip is, ''always finish the back swing''.

 

[One Planer]

What do you do when you throw a ball ?

I know what you mean, it's just putting that into words

If you include the step the weight, kind of, drops onto the left foot the rotates around before the arms come through.

 

[Foxholer]

What do you do when you throw a ball ?

While throwing a ball has a lot if similarities with a Golf swing, I'd suggest that it differs significantly in that so much of the actual, and significant, throw is performed above the level of the hips - it's really a very armsy action. Skipping a stone across water might be a better analogy in this regard - though probably not in others.

PC's spiral staircase served Henrik really well last year!!!! wonder if Westwood's having second thoughts!

Was/Is that (the spiral staircase) the reason though? :mmm: Possibly almost as (in)valid to say Stenson hits his best shots when not wearing shoes and socks (or Trousers even)! And he did win a/the Big one - in Dubai! And (now) World #3? I'd take that! Btw I did use the word 'might'! Are you not a fan of the drill? or PC even (he wouldn't be my #1 choice)?

 

[Foxholer]

Doh!!!

Complete Brain Fart re Stenson! Too much thinking about skipping stones and throwing balls!

 

[bobmac]

While throwing a ball has a lot if similarities with a Golf swing, I'd suggest that it differs significantly in that so much of the actual, and significant, throw is performed above the level of the hips - it's really a very armsy action. Skipping a stone across water might be a better analogy in this regard - though probably not in others.

I am aware they are different thank you.
The point I was trying to make was you can throw a ball without thinking about how you throw it.
Same as driving a car or riding a bike.
Gareth, KISS.
The less swing thoughts the better.

 

[One Planer]

The less swing thoughts the better.

While I agree totally Bob. It's something I have to work on.

My hip action is so lazy mainly because I've always used my arms too much in the swing. When I make the effort to rotate my hips hard through impact I get a better contact and flight.

My pro had me doing a drill where he jammed an alignment stick into the ground in front of my left leg (... And fractionally forward). The idea to get my right leg to the stick, or past it, when my swing finishes. When I don'tmake the 'effort' with my hips my right leg normally finishes short of the mark.

I suppose when making a big change, some swing thoughts are inevitable until is becomes second nature.

 

[tsped83]

I've read this thread through and it makes my head hurt. A lot.

How do you play golf with all of this going on between your ears?

 

[One Planer]

I've read this thread through and it makes my head hurt. A lot.

How do you play golf with all of this going on between your ears?

I don't have anything going on between my ears! Even at the best of times :smirk:

That's what practice is for.

Practice what you are taught on the range or at home, then go out and play, thought free :thup:

 

[lex!]

If I start thinking lower body and hips then I am in huge trouble. It promotes swaying and terrible contacts. I think its folly for the average punter to try and emulate tour pro's, these guys are the elite and spend hours practising, and training in the gym. I am working on completing a backswing, then a free swing of the arms, allowing the hands feel the momentum generated by the clubhead. Homework from my pro since my last lesson is then to finish high and balanced on my leading foot.

 

[One Planer]

If I start thinking lower body and hips then I am in huge trouble. It promotes swaying and terrible contacts. I think its folly for the average punter to try and emulate tour pro's, these guys are the elite and spend hours practising, and training in the gym. I am working on completing a backswing, then a free swing of the arms, allowing the hands feel the momentum generated by the clubhead. Homework from my pro since my last lesson is then to finish high and balanced on my leading foot.

Completely disagree with the above I'm afraid.

The professionals hit the ball well for a reason. 100% sound fundimentals and technique.

I think every bit of information I have read anywhere on the golf swing always advocates starting the downswing with the lower body. For you to say only pro's should be doing that is innaccurate as, as I have previously stated, they hit the ball well for a reason. Why wouldn't I want to emulate that?

Every single pro, scratch, or decent handiap player I have ever seen has always, without exception, started the downswing with the lower body.

Starting the downswing with the arms is the worst possible thing you could do IMHO.

 

[Foxholer]

If I start thinking lower body and hips then I am in huge trouble. It promotes swaying and terrible contacts. I think its folly for the average punter to try and emulate tour pro's, these guys are the elite and spend hours practising, and training in the gym. I am working on completing a backswing, then a free swing of the arms, allowing the hands feel the momentum generated by the clubhead. Homework from my pro since my last lesson is then to finish high and balanced on my leading foot.

That's quite possibly true - for you - and it makes sense to know your limitations.

However, if someone is capable - and Gareth's Pro checked out his flexibility - then the benefits can be significant.

Having the ability to change from 'practice mode' to 'on the course mode' is important too!