Upper & Lower Body Disassociation

[Junior]

Following this thread with interest as my pro told me something very similar regarding me not clearing my hips. To my eye, its the most visible thing I see pros doing more effectively than amatures.

My problem is when I conciously do it, I spin my hips out , club gets stuck on the inside and I either hit a huge block or snap hook.

I'll keep following with interest and any drills anyone can recommend is much appreciated.

 

[the_coach]

That's some explanation! Thanks for that coach :thup:

I can't remember who, may have been Hogan, who said "You can't clear your hips quickly enough" or words to that effect.


Is the OTT move caused by the shoulders following the hips?

Hey Gareth,

This is really part of a misunderstanding in the how the downswing works sequence wise that is.
The Hogan quote, he was referring and very importantly, once the hips had got to the point when they should be clearing they then "can't clear fast enough".

In a good sound sequence the hips move after the weight into ball left foot etc as I detailed before: but before the shoulders. But as I said with the weight first into the left foot then ankle gets in line back over foot, knee back in line over ankle this moves the hips first 2 inches laterally towards target thats the key right there, only after this small lateral move does the left hip reach the point where it should turn and clear to the left.

You'll only go out over the top if your first move with the hip is to turn and clear alone, we call this spinning the hips. If you turn spin the left hip left as it's very first move then your shoulders & upper body & arms & club have no option other than to go out and over across the line, so you get the out to in swing.

Start the swing from the ground up with the left foot and you'll get that critically important but small two inch-ish movement of the hip laterally towards target first, then and only then does the left hip turn and clear left. Then it can clear fast, that's what Hogan was speaking too, but too often it gets taken a bit out of context and folks just turn left first adn fast and spin out then you are OTT all day long.
Cheers.

 

[Foxholer]

Yes many players from yester year did lift the left heel during the back swing and yes there was nothing wrong with their game. However the modern players are much more flexible, have better training and gym routines, have better flexibility and have specific coaching for core strength and flexibility.

It's this flexibility that allows the likes of Woods, Stenson, Scott etc.... to make a full turn but keep their left heel grounded.

Call it progress in the physical aspect of the golfer, better nutrition, better understanding of strength work in the gym and better flexibility.

I agree there are many players who will lift their left heel, but lifting and thus allowing the left knee to move to far right can create all kinds of problems. This is why I said the left heel should never come of the ground. The exceptions being those that suffer back pain or look to really over rotate past 90 degrees. One prime example being John Daly.

I agree that it's a flexibility issue.

But to state 'should never' was wrong! As Bob posted, what the left knee does afterwards governs whether the overall movement is bad or not! And getting it back down quickly is important too.

And I think we've been through the 'it's pointless trying to emulate the top Pros' often enough!

Sam Snead, one of those named, was pretty flexible btw. Phil Mickleson and Bubba Watson, slight and huge over-swingers resp., are also Lead Foot lifters!

 

[the_coach]

Following this thread with interest as my pro told me something very similar regarding me not clearing my hips. To my eye, its the most visible thing I see pros doing more effectively than amatures.

My problem is when I conciously do it, I spin my hips out , club gets stuck on the inside and I either hit a huge block or snap hook.

I'll keep following with interest and any drills anyone can recommend is much appreciated.

Your transition first move needs to start from the ground up weight in left foot first (lead foot) as you have to move your hips laterally towards target first before you turn and clear the left hip left. So you don't 'spin out' ie. turn your hips as your first move, if you do you will come over the top if you trun first without the lateral bump towards target.

Best drill if you can practice on grass, stick an alignment stick vertically into the ground one inch outside you left heel so it inline with the middle of you leg.
Take your address position and first don't hit balls just make a 50% slow-mo swing back to the top, and focus on your first transition move being the feeling that the arms club and shoulders stay at the top, your back stays facing target and you press with gently with the ball of your left foot into the ground while your left hip moves laterally to the stick to gently touch it, then turn and clear and complete the 50% slow-mo swing to finish.
You'll probably need to just practice the slow move to the top & the feeling of your top half staying still, then the gently weight into ball of your left foot and feel your hip touch the stick gently, do this a few times to get used to that bit before you put the then turn and clear and slow-mo swing through to the top, do it with say an 8i.
Make sure you can do it well before you try doing it hitting balls (check the stick is in the ground far enough so your arms can clear it in the through swing!!!) and when you start hitiing balls at first keep the slow-mo gentle 50% swing so it's only going half distance as thats not the important thing here first it's to feel the new weight into foot hip bump that's the important thing here.

Once you get the move 10 out of 10 balls with that bump left first before the turn, move up to 75% swing make sure you can get this sequences bump and turn right properly before you step up to your normal comfortable 85% swing.
If you have to do this at a driving range and have a stand bag use that, the top of the bag an inch or so from your left hip at address (you'll probably have to take all the clubs out so you don't clip them on the through swing!!!)
Hope this helps.
Cheers.

 

[One Planer]

Totally agree re: moving the weight and not just turning the hips.

There's some excellent information come out if this thread. Thanks again guys :thup:

I have no issue moving my weight, my issue came (..... As Coach says) from a sequencing issue. Something I have always had is poor hip rotation (Both ways)

The issue I mention in the OP is not opening my hips going back. This has nearly been remedied now, but the main issue was a poor hip turn through that gave both contact and flight issues.

When I clear my hips, as instructed, contract is better and the flight of the ball is much more predictable. I no longer hit a straight pull, or a pull draw.

My last range session (... Yesterday) the only ball that missed left was an over draw that only just missed the left edge of the green.

As I say it's very much a work in progress, but so far so good :thup:

 

[Junior]

Your transition first move needs to start from the ground up weight in left foot first (lead foot) as you have to move your hips laterally towards target first before you turn and clear the left hip left. So you don't 'spin out' ie. turn your hips as your first move, if you do you will come over the top if you trun first without the lateral bump towards target.

Best drill if you can practice on grass, stick an alignment stick vertically into the ground one inch outside you left heel so it inline with the middle of you leg.
Take your address position and first don't hit balls just make a 50% slow-mo swing back to the top, and focus on your first transition move being the feeling that the arms club and shoulders stay at the top, your back stays facing target and you press with gently with the ball of your left foot into the ground while your left hip moves laterally to the stick to gently touch it, then turn and clear and complete the 50% slow-mo swing to finish.
You'll probably need to just practice the slow move to the top & the feeling of your top half staying still, then the gently weight into ball of your left foot and feel your hip touch the stick gently, do this a few times to get used to that bit before you put the then turn and clear and slow-mo swing through to the top, do it with say an 8i.
Make sure you can do it well before you try doing it hitting balls (check the stick is in the ground far enough so your arms can clear it in the through swing!!!) and when you start hitiing balls at first keep the slow-mo gentle 50% swing so it's only going half distance as thats not the important thing here first it's to feel the new weight into foot hip bump that's the important thing here.

Once you get the move 10 out of 10 balls with that bump left first before the turn, move up to 75% swing make sure you can get this sequences bump and turn right properly before you step up to your normal comfortable 85% swing.
If you have to do this at a driving range and have a stand bag use that, the top of the bag an inch or so from your left hip at address (you'll probably have to take all the clubs out so you don't clip them on the through swing!!!)
Hope this helps.
Cheers.

Thanks ! :thup::thup:

 

[the_coach]

I have no issue moving my weight, my issue came (..... As Coach says) from a sequencing issue. Something I have always had is poor hip rotation (Both ways)

The issue I mention in the OP is not opening my hips going back. This has nearly been remedied now, but the main issue was a poor hip turn through that gave both contact and flight issues.

As I say it's very much a work in progress, but so far so good :thup:

Gareth glad to hear it's going well.

Just one point on the hip turn in the back swing, the feeling this isn't working is often because on first move away is often a little sway to the right of the hips and not a turn.

Often it's also to do with the angle our pelvis is at address, the tailbone (tush) isn't out and back and up enough to we don't have enough angle in the pelvis.
You can check with your belt buckle, if at address the buckle is looking more straight forwards well in front high over the ball target line you won't be able to make a decent hip movement in the backswing or clearing left turn during the through swing. You want the buckle therefore your pelvis looking more at the ball target line there should be much more of an angle to your pelvis you can check with the of the belt backside to front, if viewed from the DTL viewpoint it should be at a angle well downwards towards ball target line and not still fairly level.

If it's a little bit of a sway right that's also the problem with the hips in the back swing, when your hands get to just past your right thigh you should be starting to 'turn' into your right hip socket, your body pivot turning your weight into the inside of your right foot you never let it get past that inside right foot position, keeping flex in your right knee, you'll feel a good deal of tension in the inside of your right thigh, and if you had a wallet in the right back hand pocket of your golf slacks the wallet will be moving slowly towards target direction and not moving in the direction right and away from it.

Cheers.

 

[One Planer]

Gareth glad to hear it's going well.

Just one point on the hip turn in the back swing, the feeling this isn't working is often because on first move away is often a little sway to the right of the hips and not a turn.

Often it's also to do with the angle our pelvis is at address, the tailbone (tush) isn't out and back and up enough to we don't have enough angle in the pelvis.
You can check with your belt buckle, if at address the buckle is looking more straight forwards well in front high over the ball target line you won't be able to make a decent hip movement in the backswing or clearing left turn during the through swing. You want the buckle therefore your pelvis looking more at the ball target line there should be much more of an angle to your pelvis you can check with the of the belt backside to front, if viewed from the DTL viewpoint it should be at a angle well downwards towards ball target line and not still fairly level.

If it's a little bit of a sway right that's also the problem with the hips in the back swing, when your hands get to just past your right thigh you should be starting to 'turn' into your right hip socket, your body pivot turning your weight into the inside of your right foot you never let it get past that inside right foot position, keeping flex in your right knee, you'll feel a good deal of tension in the inside of your right thigh, and if you had a wallet in the right back hand pocket of your golf slacks the wallet will be moving slowly towards target direction and not moving in the direction right and away from it.

Cheers.

Very similar to what my pro said.

He used the analogy of having the feeling someone is tugging my right pocket back behind me.

The pocket never gets behind, but it does give a good/better turn :thup:

 

[G1BB0]

when I have played well (yes it does happen now and again) I have noticed a feeling of a pause at the top of the backswing, its almost as if I am swinging in a rhythm and it just clicks

can't bloody replicate it at will though!

 

[the_coach]

Very similar to what my pro said.

He used the analogy of having the feeling someone is tugging my right pocket back behind me.

The pocket never gets behind, but it does give a good/better turn :thup:

Yes that's exactly the feel you should have, analogy of the wallet in the right "back' pocket moving slowly to target or someone tugging your right front hip pocket behind you.

One way to feel this is at home inside, no club involved, cross your arms across your chest (as you do to feel a correct shoulder turn, club across your chest if you really want) and take up your address stance and posture, paying particular attention to the correct angle of your pelvis, but you do this with your both left and right backside cheeks both roughly half inch away from a wall.

Start your shoulder turn resist in your legs until the pivot starts to turn your hips (keep the weight inside right foot right knee flexed)
Do this and you'll feel your right cheek brush the wall as your back right (wallet) pocket turns a little towards the target side of your stance as you continue your shoulder turn, and that's exactly the feeling you need in your backswing, your right hip should never move away from target to the right in any way.

Body & shoulder pivot fulcrum is at the bone thats attached to your pelvis (not as some people think at the base of your spine) try making a shoulder turn just from the small of your back where the base of the spine is and don't allow your pelvis to turn and you'll see what I mean as your shoulder turn will be way way short of ninety for sure, it's only be allowing the pelvis to rotate that you can get to ninety degs and a complete shoudler turn to the top

 

[One Planer]

Yes that's exactly the feel you should have, analogy of the wallet in the right "back' pocket moving slowly to target or someone tugging your right front hip pocket behind you.

One way to feel this is at home inside, no club involved, cross your arms across your chest (as you do to feel a correct shoulder turn, club across your chest if you really want) and take up your address stance and posture, paying particular attention to the correct angle of your pelvis, but you do this with your both left and right backside cheeks both roughly half inch away from a wall.

Start your shoulder turn resist in your legs until the pivot starts to turn your hips (keep the weight inside right foot right knee flexed)
Do this and you'll feel your right cheek brush the wall as your back right (wallet) pocket turns a little towards the target side of your stance as you continue your shoulder turn, and that's exactly the feeling you need in your backswing, your right hip should never move away from target to the right in any way.

Body & shoulder pivot fulcrum is at the bone thats attached to your pelvis (not as some people think at the base of your spine) try making a shoulder turn just from the small of your back where the base of the spine is and don't allow your pelvis to turn and you'll see what I mean as your shoulder turn will be way way short of ninety for sure, it's only be allowing the pelvis to rotate that you can get to ninety degs and a complete shoudler turn to the top

It's nice to know I'm moving along the right track. Confidence in what I'm doing has just been boosted

Thanks Coach :thup:

 

[G1BB0]

I can replicate all these moves and understand every feeling, why can't it be done on the course with a club in hand?

 

[the_coach]

Thanks ! :thup::thup:

No problem, get this down right and it will help you for sure.

Doing for the first time if off grass use a short tee pressed right in with just the base of the ball cup of the tee on the ground, so you can't push it in any further.
As though it sounds as if the drill should be easy it requires you really working on timing and getting the sequence of moves right, off a tee as described just gives you that little bit of extra confidence and you'll soon be surprised at the quality of the strikes you get, when you start to hit balls once; once you got it nailed as a drill without a ball first.

If you're doing off range matt, use the smallest tee so ball is just quarter of inch off the matt.

 

[the_coach]

It's nice to know I'm moving along the right track. Confidence in what I'm doing has just been boosted

Thanks Coach :thup:

No problem, keep at it, and you'll get it down.

Just remember, get that pelvic tilt right, it's crucial to a proper pivot of the upper body as well as the hips themselves, without it you can't get an efficient turn back or be able to clear the left hip properly after the first small lateral bump.

One reason so many people can't make a proper turn back is that they are bending from the waist, and you can't turn properly from the base at the small of your back with the pelvis too flat facing forwards and not angled down at the ball target line.
Got to make spine angle by bending from the hip sockets in the pelvis.
Have a go at that inside against the wall drill, it'll help for sure, even though it looks a bit odd, ha!
Swing it well.
Cheers

 

[G1BB0]

any pics/vids to illustrate this, I find this very interesting

 

[the_coach]

any pics/vids to illustrate this, I find this very interesting

Hi, not sure if you mean what I've been talking about, most tour pro's swings you watch if you have a trawl over utube will be making these movements.
If it is about what i've been explaining and you have any questions, just ask and I'll do my best to help you.
Cheers.

 

[JustOne]

As I understand what he said, he wants me to begin my downswing with my lower half, before my shoulders have finished turning in the back swing. Something Tom Watson also advocates:

"In the best swings the lower body starts forward while the upper body is still turning back. The left hip turns toward the target as the shoulders continue to coil. That takes terrific timing and a lot of practice."

In my opinion what you've described above is GOLF SWING SUICIDE

Not only do you risk hurting your lower back (which is enough reason in itself) you are in fact (as even Tom Watson said in your quote) building something that requires a huge amount of timing.... and a lot of practice.

You're almost describing the 'x-factor' as it was originally written (separation between the hip angle and the shoulder angle)...... which has actually been debunked even by the person who originally came up with it!!!

As I said.... golf suicide..... and my lower back that I damaged when trying to PROVE to someone how bad it is is testament to what I'm saying.

If you were 14 and that was 'your move' and you did it for 15yrs whilst remaining super-supple, fit, and got the timing practically perfect most of the time then MAYBE it would have some value.

 

[One Planer]

In my opinion what you've described above is GOLF SWING SUICIDE

Not only do you risk hurting your lower back (which is enough reason in itself) you are in fact (as even Tom Watson said in your quote) building something that requires a huge amount of timing.... and a lot of practice.

You're almost describing the 'x-factor' as it was originally written (separation between the hip angle and the shoulder angle)...... which has actually been debunked even by the person who originally came up with it!!!

As I said.... golf suicide..... and my lower back that I damaged when trying to PROVE to someone how bad it is is testament to what I'm saying.

If you were 14 and that was 'your move' and you did it for 15yrs whilst remaining super-supple, fit, and got the timing practically perfect most of the time then MAYBE it would have some value.

This is something I've also considered James :thup:

As I, and I think Coach, said above, it's more an exaggerated feeling rather than an actual action (Feel vs Real).

 

[the_coach]

This is something I've also considered James :thup:

As I, and I think Coach, said above, it's more an exaggerated feeling rather than an actual action (Feel vs Real).

Yep, Gareth that's the nub of it 'feel vs real'.


My guess would be your pro has identified you:- A. either start your downswing with lower body plus upper body at the same time, whist you can play golf from this, you lose the chance to develop optimum club head speed and there'll be more timing and club path consistency issues if everything starts back at once (back to my 'relay' analogy)
Or:- B. you tend to start your downswing with your arms, hands & upper body so not giving chance for your lower body to work properly through the swing, this upper body first motion, gives you an out to in swing path, you can play golf from here also, but again but you'll be playing it with at best a fade consistently but you'll lack a little distance, and at worse this way a fade, a pull (or even possibly a pull hook if you up the ante and try and save it with extra hands through impact) or a big old slice and you'll never be able to be quite sure which one is going to turn up when!


As I've said before all good golfers play golf with the transition starting from the ground up, weight into ball of lead foot first, that's an indisputable truth across the golf coaching world.


{as an aside it was Jim McQueen (who teaches at Doral mainly -course with the terrifying 'blue monster' 18th) who came up the X Factor, as far as I'm aware he still, to date, talks about it, and has 2013 vids on his website and utube about it, hasn't completely disowned it to the best of my knowledge - though that 'extreme' is not something I would recommend to the ordinary handicap golfer.
You have to have extreme suppleness, flexibility and strength in your abs and back muscles plus no hip socket or back issues. That kind of XF swing you find in plus, scratch or near scratch top juniors at around 13, 14, 15 and they'll have to tone down that XF as the years progress.
For instance it will be interesting to see how McIlroy develops his swing (which is still in the pure essence a young juniors action at it's core even now) as his flexibility changes down the years McIlroy's swing at 35 will I think be quite a bit different to todays version. Couples back problems well documented but he's an extremely flexible golfer still into his early 50's but it's still taken it's toll on him.}


So my take would be your Pro wants you to start the swing down from the ground up, which he should want, and as an exaggerated 'feel' he's asked you to feel lower body start as shoulders are still moving back.


Either, he can see you're the right body shape, slim and fit, and have flexibility and core strength to adapt to this, although still as I've spoken about above there are inherent difficulties in trying to play golf with a 'big' XF for sure, and as I've said not something I'd recommend as a long term model for the 'club' golfer.


Or, importantly he's wanting you to 'feel' this, whilst actually the 'real' is, that your shoulders arms and club are allowed to reach the top of your backswing and then your transition starts with initially the ball of the left foot pressing into the ground and the lower body starting the through swing with the your upper body, back, arms and club 'appearing' to stay still because the change in direction led by the lower body giving the 'illusion' of a pause as the 'up' movement in the club changes to 'down' in the way I've described in previous posts on tis thread.
This is a model I'd recommend as it gives you the 'relay' sequences in your downswing for your best swing speed through impact as it allows you to retain the 'angles' set in the backswing, gives you the best angle of attack (as your weight will be 80-85% on a posted left leg through impact) and also the best swing path of 'in' to square to 'in' and all of these will deliver the best impact conditions for a good strike through the ball. Whilst also giving you no 'damage' to your back or pelvis.
Cheers.

 

[Foxholer]

I believe Jim McLean grabbed 1 concept described in The Golf Machine, called it the X-Factor and claimed to have discovered/invented it.

He's quite good at that sort of thing - as are quite a few others! Having taught using Old Ball Flight Laws (face aimed at the target) for years, I saw a claim that he's told the world about New ones (face aim governs initial ball direction)!

Or am I just being cynical!

Some of his stuff is really quite good though - the 10 Death Moves (or something like that) is a good series!