Upper & Lower Body Disassociation

[Oddsocks]

I get the reason of the bump as my pro is banging on about it the same way yours is, bump the hips to drop the arms...

It was more the fact that when you at the range, on your own trying to grove it exaggerating the movement to try and get to the tour stick which get the feeling "allowing" the arms to drop and also giving pretty quick feedback,

 

[One Planer]

I get the reason of the bump as my pro is banging on about it the same way yours is, bump the hips to drop the arms...

It was more the fact that when you at the range, on your own trying to grove it exaggerating the movement to try and get to the tour stick which get the feeling "allowing" the arms to drop and also giving pretty quick feedback,

For sure :thup:

Bob hit the nail on the head a few pages back. We all learn in different ways as were all individual.

I learn pretty much by feel. When practicing I'm looking for a feeling or motioning the swing the repeats and delivers what I'm being taught.

For me, as I said earlier, the feeling of keeping my back facing the target while I bump my hips is reaping great reward. I don't actually keep my back facing the target, I know I rotate, or I'd be in all kinds of trouble, it's just a feeling to let me know I'm doing it right.

 

[Chisteve]

Great thread, I video myself at the range and have been working on dislocation of my hips from my shoulders changed my swing completely, reading this is a great help to me as I don't take instruction very well at all but do understand if I see a video and read these very good points and explanations

 

[One Planer]

Great thread, I video myself at the range and have been working on dislocation of my hips from my shoulders changed my swing completely, reading this is a great help to me as I don't take instruction very well at all but do understand if I see a video and read these very good points and explanations

Sounds painful :lol:

I'm glad you find the thread useful. There certainly is some great information in here.

 

[Chisteve]

Oops of course I meant disassociation

 

[the_coach]

Just a thought for folks on how you learn and therefore how you teach, my take on it. Everyone coach/teacher with a passion for golf and in particular a passion to help someone achieve the best golf swing for them that will give them the best results as consistently as possible.
Obviously as a given the instructor has to have studied the fundamentals and thoroughly understood them and knows what exactly is needed to produce a good and solid swing through the ball that produces the best impact conditions possible to send the ball to target.
To be able to do this you also have to be able to see through interaction with the student in front of you just what kind of 'learner' they are.
Some folks respond best to explanation and the observation of the swing and the various parts of, some need to be physically put in certain positions in order to feel them before using that feel to produce a swing themselves, through constant alternation of first being put in position in a session then repeat the motion themselves.
Some people are very exact, they just need to be shown exactly what to do where the club and body should be in 3d space with an explanation of a feeling, and they can work to that, pretty quickly.
Young golfers in particular are very receptive to being shown a move within a swing motion and are able to copy this and thus feel the motion for themselves, they can find it fairly easy to learn through mimicry.
Others, who you are trying to help iron out deep ingrained faults and compensations often can't take straight away an exact route, as this only leads to them repeating what they normally do but they are thinking they are making the changes needed when in reality they are not at all, but generally will only believe this with their own eyes when shown video of their original movement.
A video of a lesson of them being shown and spoken to about the changes they need to make, then the 'after' video that they think they have changed things only to see they are still doing exactly the same thing is often the only way having seen for themselves they will trust instruction that immediately feels to them too much of an exaggeration. These folks only really make the changes when they then are asked to make these pretty big and radical exaggerated swing moves in order for them to get near to making any change at all.
The best coaches deal with the person and swing motion presented to them (taking into consideration age, flexibility, fitness, medical conditions, long term injuries etc.)
Find out how the folks learn best, and tailors the lessons, and drills to the best way for that individual to find improvement, good instructors don't teach a one size fits all- only way to swing method at all.
A good instructor, knows well the right feelings and movements to make to produce a sound repeatable golf swing, because that's what they do when they swing a golf club, they know how it feels. It's how best to convey that, that's the nub of the matter.
The job is providing a platform, a particular way for that 'pupil' in front of you to experience for themselves the motion and results of a sound swing motion that produces repeatable sound impact conditions.
Folks only truly learn so that it sticks if they can have that "learned experience' for themselves through guidance, and 'good' practice.

 

[the_coach]

When the weight moves to the lead foot at start of the downswing, should it be on the ball of the foot, or the heel?

As really with all things in golf to a large extent it depends on what you are already doing.
So this is totally dependent on having the correct fundamentals at address, aim, alignment, posture (and keeping good posture through to impact totally crucial to proper ball contact through impact) and also a proper 'coil' in the backswing to top, posture maintained (no rising up out of on the way back) weight at top of backswing is along the whole inside of the right foot, flex still in right knee and pressure on the inside of your right thigh, pivot and shoulder 'turn' not tilt, hips 'turned' by the pivot back and haven't just swayed away to the right.

So assuming all of the above in good shape.
If your a golfer who makes a good backswing to the top but has to allow on the final bit of the backswing the left(lead) heel to come up off the ground, first off that heel has to get back to the ground as the first thing in transition. But it should get back smoothly and not jerked back, or jumped on, or slammed down, as you want to feel your pressure into the ground in the center of your left (lead) foot, to be exact the part of the ball of your foot nearest to the arch and not nearest your toes (you can only feel this exactly if you make some very slow motion turns back and through with yours arms folded across your chest, just to feel the experience, you'll never feel this weight pressure in center of that foot at the first just by swinging through a golf swing through a ball)

If your a golfer flexible enough to make a backswing and the whole of your left (lead) foot remains on the ground, you should try to feel the ball of the foot pressing down into the ground first, which will align your leg so it can post and your left hip clear correctly.
Usually if you slam weight pressure into your left heel first if you've kept that foot on the ground going back if you're not careful you won't get the small lateral movement of your hips you need first, weight into the heel first then will tend to spin your hips hard left first result lots of pulls or slices depending where the face of the club is pointing through that out to in swing path, which is not at all what you want.
However, if, say you are someone who tends to have coming into and through impact 'early extension' (hips moving forward to target line and thus extended your body height leading you to come up out of impact) and you tend to feel a lot of weight on your toes through impact and after, then a feeling of keeping your 'backside' back to maintain a better pelvic angle with a little weight on your left heel wouldn't go amiss.

It may be your a golfer who can as first move in transition concentrate on just feeling the 'bump' left of the hips that two or three inches needed before you turn left hip and clear it to give the space for your hands, arms and club to come through on the right path square through impact. (for as well as helping generate club-head speed that's exactly why the left hip has to clear left, without it the arms and clubs path to/through impact will be blocked and yours arms and club will be forced to move outwards and away from you and to the right of the target line.)

As a generalization I've found most golfers focussing on moving the hips laterally left as their first move back tend to move them left too much thus bow the left leg, then you can't post it properly and find a clearing left hip movement very difficult to achieve. It does as a thought work for some folks.
Another way some folks find they can start transition and make the necessary lateral hip 'bump' left and weight pressure in left foot, to turn and clear properly, is that they focus on the weight on the inside of their right foot that they've put their by the body pivot in the backswing. They can feel that they can push gently from the inside of the right foot to make the small lateral hip move left, and weight pressure in left foot as the start of their transition. Gently being the operative word here though, as if you really push hard off the right instep and that's the general temptation here in the search for club-head speed, it will again move the hips left much too far and too soon, left leg will be bowed and your whole center (sternum, upper body) will be too far left to be able to make any proper kind of swing through impact. It works for some, though not many in my experience.

If you're a golfer whose lead foot can stay on the ground in a sound backswing move, feeling weight pressure into the ground initially through the ball and center of the left(lead) foot is the most reliable way of making a transition for most folks that I've found through my golf experience.

 

[JustOne]

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And to think.... I used to get it in the neck for 'detail'

 

[pendodave]

I hope this doesn't throw things about too much, but sadly I have 'slightly' bowed legs...

So my 'normal' left leg position is already slightly bowed. Does this mean that I can't make any of these really useful moves ?

Because of the knock-on affect on my ankle geometry, it can also be hard to get pressure on the correct parts of the foot during the swing.

I seem to remember reading somewhere that it was impossible for bow legged people to be good golfers, hopefully this is proof that I am a dodgy ball striker for a reason.

 

[lex!]

Golf, good golf is a game solely based on stability, a solid base - feet, knees, legs which has to 'ground' your golf swing. The importance of 'ground force' can't be stressed enough really, down through both feet. Against the inside right foot inside right thigh forcing your weight into the ground going back allowing you to 'wind up', and down into the ground against the left leg posted as the left hip clears going through towards swing finish. Without a solid base you can only get limited speed to the club-head, and little accuracy to the strike either if the golfer has a severe case of 'Elvis knees & legs'.

You can have a compact swing (well short of parallel going back, many top golfers do with their irons in particular, and quite a few with the driver, 3metal etc.) but there is still width there going back. Compact shouldn't and doesn't mean narrow going back. You need natural width going back as in a proper and good transition through to impact the arms will from transition both shallow out and narrow a little in the downswing. The one thing you have to guard against working on width going back, is, if you really reach out with your arms and club to try to gain width in an exaggerated way you'll disconnect your arms & club from your body pivot/turn, and then you'll struggle in trying to get back through the ball with any club-head speed or solid strike and pressure through the back of the ball.

Another very good post. The advice about the solid base is so important I reckon. This is a really interesting thread and I enjoy following it.

 

[Foxholer]

I hope this doesn't throw things about too much, but sadly I have 'slightly' bowed legs...

So my 'normal' left leg position is already slightly bowed. Does this mean that I can't make any of these really useful moves ?

Because of the knock-on affect on my ankle geometry, it can also be hard to get pressure on the correct parts of the foot during the swing.

I seem to remember reading somewhere that it was impossible for bow legged people to be good golfers, hopefully this is proof that I am a dodgy ball striker for a reason.

Probably makes it 'more difficult' but not 'impossible'!

Key is finding a suitable work-around.

Plenty of really good amputee Golfers!

 

[Jimbooo]

Another very good post. The advice about the solid base is so important I reckon. This is a really interesting thread and I enjoy following it.

I agree... great thread. Many thanks the_coach (and others) for all the info. :thup:

 

[the_coach]

I hope this doesn't throw things about too much, but sadly I have 'slightly' bowed legs...

So my 'normal' left leg position is already slightly bowed. Does this mean that I can't make any of these really useful moves ?

Because of the knock-on affect on my ankle geometry, it can also be hard to get pressure on the correct parts of the foot during the swing.

I seem to remember reading somewhere that it was impossible for bow legged people to be good golfers, hopefully this is proof that I am a dodgy ball striker for a reason.

Don't despair you can still play very good golf, this doesn't preclude you at all.

You will by now be totally comfortable with your own 'balance' points and center gravity.

The left leg being bowed through impact that would impair impact that I was referring to was to do with folks that have been told to start their downswing transition with a lateral shift left of the hips. For some folks this may well be fine as they will be able to do this and only shift the 2" to 3" left, the so called 'bump' move and for the ones who can and this leads to weight centered on the left foot and that's all fine.

However I've found for most folks just concentrating on a shift left of the hips, as the start move usually leads to a bigger shift left first off, shift becomes big slide and this is where the problem I was speaking about starts.

Shift the left hip too far laterally straight away from the top and it goes well past the outside of your left foot, weight on outside of left foot too soon at the start of the downswing will lead to being unable to straighten the left leg (to whatever your particular 'straight' is when standing 'normally') so there remains too much flex in the knee, it's that extra knee flex 'bowing' the leg I was referring to, this will lead to not being able to clear the left hip well.

So concentrating on weight centered on left foot with the hip 'bump' left laterally at the start of the downswings transition will still be perfectly fine for you providing you don't slide the hip too far left straightaway and take the left hip too far past the outside of your left foot (if you took a vertical line from outside hip to outside left foot) and therefore weight would be too far to the outside of your left foot, making a solid left leg and hip clear left very difficult to achieve.
(to what ever extent would be 'normal' straight for you in your left leg will be okay given the above)

My fathers friend and normal playing partner (is around 63) plays off 5, (has been a Cat 1 player most of his life) at Spyglass, considered by most, (including me) to be one of the hardest tracks worldwide, and he is bow legged, brought up on a ranch has ridden as soon as his folks could put him and hold him on a pony. Hasn't done him any harm, good sound swing. So wouldn't worry about that one bit.