Upper & Lower Body Disassociation

[lex!]

Purely personal, but the analogy of throwing a ball just doesn't work for me, and I used to play div one cricket. The swing is just so dramatically different.

 

[Oddsocks]

After my previous lesson a a really dodger fortnight of grip changes I bounced for a second option as result were going from bad to worse quicker than the British weather. The second pro stumbled on something that not one pro had brought up in the last 5/6 years. There's was little leg bracing on the right leg which lead to over rotation/swaying, which in turn lead to major inconsistencies. It would get that bad that down the line shots would result in being able to see light between the legs which is obviously not good.

We spend Wednesday night just working on a firm stable leg set up and hip bump at the top and result were night a day difference, it took around 100 balls before it really started to click but the ones that did like Gareth said were great, better compression, better quality strike and so,e of the lowest flights I've see which has always been a big issue for me. It seems from there my only bad miss is letter the hands get away from me. Good balls were in to square to in. Bad were in to square to out which was nasty but I'm working on this.

It's actually amazing that it seems many in this thread including myself build from an unstable base and don't realise that power and consistency is built from the ground up effectively.

I have to admit today was a car crash at the range but I felt drained and stiff so it was better to leave the balls there.

Got to admit I've ready this thread twice now before posting and I think it could possible go down as one of the most informative threads that have been here, but what's good it the variation in the level of information is given.

Coach, very indepth and descriptive for those that have the need for maximum info in order to understand fully.
Bob, 10% info just hit it this way and kiss. Oooo'er....

Then the I between.

A great thread and one that may help me in tomorrow's range session.

 

[Oddsocks]

I think these two pictures illustrate what I'm looking to achieve. Again using Luke Donald as an example:

Top of backswing:

Weight shift:

Looking at the above images, that little 'bump' to start the weight moving to the left is what I've mis-understood. I don't have to force my hips to do anything in transition. If I move my weight correctly they take care of themselves?

Like Bob says KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid)!

Seems we are both working on identical things

 

[One Planer]

Seems we are both working on identical things

Looks that way pal.

From a previous lesson I had, when videod, my base is very stable. I had zero, literally zero head or hip sway (backwards) and to the top.

I had a range session Thursday, before getting a dose if the flu, and hit the ball beautifully.

Our range has a green at 150 yards. I've set myself the target of keeping the balls I hit inside the confines of the green, meaning when playing a course I'd have only a simple chip left.

When I get to the top of the backswing, I have the sensation of moving my left hip towards the target, while my back is still facing the target. It still feels weird, as it's still new, however the results are more than acceptable in both contact and direction.

I also agree that some of the content in this thread has been excellent.

 

[Oddsocks]

My issue what the problem come from a sway away from the targets that left my head behind the ball, then on the down swing you have to fire the hopes majorly iPad get quite handsy leaving yourself behind the ball. I worked on a drill recently that had me getting back to the ball and when it worked it's ok, but the fact is the sway/twist in the back swing caused a lot more issues.

When hitting off a firm base I notice the old foot slip goes and I feel bolted to the floor, because I'm not twisting I'm less flat and finish in a more neutral position at the top still with a slightly closed face but it's not really an issue,

I notice from the videos posted in the start of this thread of Gary woodland he's swing it quite compact and doesnt swing back to horizontal at the top, this was something I found also.

Being honest my head wasn't into today's range session and it may have been slightly half arsed so to speak, but reading this thread reminded me of stuff that I'd let slip from the mid week lesson, need to get back to the range tomorrow, while it still fresh in my head, may even have to retread it in the morning.

Like you our range has greens at 100 yards (about 40ft wide) and same at 150 so you can effectively play virtual par 3's. I believe that this is too much of a miss area so I tend to focus on one side of the green giving me an approx 20ft target, as my striking gets more consistent the target will be reduced in size again,

 

[Foxholer]

Purely personal, but the analogy of throwing a ball just doesn't work for me, and I used to play div one cricket. The swing is just so dramatically different.

Analogies can be dangerous things.

Throwing action, of some sort, does seem appropriate - to me. But I can certainly imagine how it doesn't help. Golf and cricket ball throws are significantly lighter and less awkward to throw than a club is to swing. A softball throw might be better. My 'skimming stones' one also involves more hip work, but a dangerous amount of knee bend! The baseball/softball swing, tilted 45*?

 

[One Planer]

My issue what the problem come from a sway away from the targets that left my head behind the ball, then on the down swing you have to fire the hopes majorly iPad get quite handsy leaving yourself behind the ball. I worked on a drill recently that had me getting back to the ball and when it worked it's ok, but the fact is the sway/twist in the back swing caused a lot more issues.

When hitting off a firm base I notice the old foot slip goes and I feel bolted to the floor, because I'm not twisting I'm less flat and finish in a more neutral position at the top still with a slightly closed face but it's not really an issue,

I notice from the videos posted in the start of this thread of Gary woodland he's swing it quite compact and doesnt swing back to horizontal at the top, this was something I found also.

Being honest my head wasn't into today's range session and it may have been slightly half arsed so to speak, but reading this thread reminded me of stuff that I'd let slip from the mid week lesson, need to get back to the range tomorrow, while it still fresh in my head, may even have to retread it in the morning.

Like you our range has greens at 100 yards (about 40ft wide) and same at 150 so you can effectively play virtual par 3's. I believe that this is too much of a miss area so I tend to focus on one side of the green giving me an approx 20ft target, as my striking gets more consistent the target will be reduced in size again,

Exactly.

Where you say Gary a Woodland has a compact swing, I'm the exact opposite. My pro say I have a lot of width in my swing, which is good for distance ............... apparently

 

[G1BB0]

isnt it funny how such a relatively simple process, especially in practice is soo bloody hard to replicate when aiming at a particular spot with that little white spherical object in the way and a card in hand! Loving this thread and all the little (or large) snippets of advice are invaluable

 

[the_coach]

Golf, good golf is a game solely based on stability, a solid base - feet, knees, legs which has to 'ground' your golf swing. The importance of 'ground force' can't be stressed enough really, down through both feet. Against the inside right foot inside right thigh forcing your weight into the ground going back allowing you to 'wind up', and down into the ground against the left leg posted as the left hip clears going through towards swing finish. Without a solid base you can only get limited speed to the club-head, and little accuracy to the strike either if the golfer has a severe case of 'Elvis knees & legs'.

You can have a compact swing (well short of parallel going back, many top golfers do with their irons in particular, and quite a few with the driver, 3metal etc.) but there is still width there going back. Compact shouldn't and doesn't mean narrow going back. You need natural width going back as in a proper and good transition through to impact the arms will from transition both shallow out and narrow a little in the downswing. The one thing you have to guard against working on width going back, is, if you really reach out with your arms and club to try to gain width in an exaggerated way you'll disconnect your arms & club from your body pivot/turn, and then you'll struggle in trying to get back through the ball with any club-head speed or solid strike and pressure through the back of the ball.

 

[Jimbooo]

Analogies can be dangerous things.

Throwing action, of some sort, does seem appropriate - to me. But I can certainly imagine how it doesn't help. Golf and cricket ball throws are significantly lighter and less awkward to throw than a club is to swing. A softball throw might be better. My 'skimming stones' one also involves more hip work, but a dangerous amount of knee bend! The baseball/softball swing, tilted 45*?

A throwing action doesn't help me at all because I throw with my left hand, but I swing right-handed! Those skimming stones analogies etc. just don't work for me as I see my swing as a 'backhand' I suppose.

 

[Oddsocks]

When I referred to compact, I should have been specific in terms of shorter back swing. I've been advised let the swing stop when the muscles feel stretched, do not over rotate in order to get to parallel at the top, the back swing will finish where it finishes within reason,

 

[One Planer]

When I referred to compact, I should have been specific in terms of shorter back swing. I've been advised let the swing stop when the muscles feel stretched, do not over rotate in order to get to parallel at the top, the back swing will finish where it finishes within reason,

Ah I see :thup:

I only swing to about 10.30 myself.

 

[the_coach]

With a view to just how important the ground is in a golf swing, here's a snippet of footage by the golf teacher that I went to when I was about 16, Gregg McHatton. (he also taught a 12 or 13 year old Sean Foley not sure exactly how old he was when I used to see him turn up for his lessons) He's talking about the ground and hips albeit in not a usual way.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STpivHaEGhM

In this other vid, Gregg discusses again, ground, plus feet, leg and body core involvement in the golf swing.
For those looking at understanding better the 'transition move' into the downswing pay particular attention to the slowmo swing of Gregg. Notice how his weight in his left foot at the start of transition is really working hard downwards into the ground and then how that gets his left hip in position to turn and clear, also you'll see how the joints in the left leg (ankle, knee, hip socket) are brought perfectly into line so if you look at the outside line of Gregg's left leg you'll see it's virtually in a perfectly vertical straight line.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqMr8_1nS4A

 

[Jimbooo]

When the weight moves to the lead foot at start of the downswing, should it be on the ball of the foot, or the heel?

 

[Jimbooo]

In this other vid, Gregg discusses again, ground, plus feet, leg and body core involvement in the golf swing.
For those looking at understanding better the 'transition move' into the downswing pay particular attention to the slowmo swing of Gregg. Notice how his weight in his left foot at the start of transition is really working hard downwards into the ground and then how that gets his left hip in position to turn and clear, also you'll see how the joints in the left leg (ankle, knee, hip socket) are brought perfectly into line so if you look at the outside line of Gregg's left leg you'll see it's virtually in a perfectly vertical straight line.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqMr8_1nS4A

That's a truly beautiful swing.

 

[Oddsocks]

Does anyone else not find it strange that you could/have embarked on years of lessons, and no other pro' shave ever got you thinking from the ground up.

I was thinking this morning and since 08, I've had around 30/35 lessons and yet not one coach until last week has ever addressed my stance or base in this detail, surely with the base being the house of power I tap worries me that pros never actually fully address y.our problems, more a course of quick fixes

 

[Oddsocks]

Hypothetically speaking, what's to stop you using a range mat, and sticking a tour stick in the left hander tee holder , rather like this?

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PqR7HFz5wis

I get that this is an extreme move as he's bump looks to be around 3-4 inches but the principle is there,

 

[chrisd]

Does anyone else not find it strange that you could/have embarked on years of lessons, and no other pro' shave ever got you thinking from the ground up.

I was thinking this morning and since 08, I've had around 30/35 lessons and yet not one coach until last week has ever addressed my stance or base in this detail, surely with the base being the house of power I tap worries me that pros never actually fully address y.our problems, more a course of quick fixes

I agree Baz.

So many Pro's don't cover the problems in their pupils swings, rather, they try and get all pupils swings the same. This doesn't take into account factors like age, suppleness or injuries and, whilst I agree a " one swing fits all" approach might cure a multitude of swing faults in a player I think we all need some leeway in what we attempt to swing like.

One of the biggest improvements in my game came when I started to swing slower from the top, it transformed my strike, but, no pro (and I've been to many) ever suggested doing this!

In the last few weeks I've been helping a mate who's off 14, we've slowed his transition down, loosened the right hand grip (he pull hooked with a strong right hand grip) and moved his ball back a fraction and the improvements in his strike have been awesome. Sadly for him, he has spent upwards of 4k on lessons in the past few years with one pro who apparently said at one stage that "someone has to pay his mortgage"!

 

[Oddsocks]

To be told someone has to pay my mortgage would tip me over the edge

 

[One Planer]

Hypothetically speaking, what's to stop you using a range mat, and sticking a tour stick in the left hander tee holder , rather like this?

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PqR7HFz5wis

I get that this is an extreme move as he's bump looks to be around 3-4 inches but the principle is there,

The only real issue I have with drills like that is it implies that things work independently and are not connected.

How I have always understood the transition is the bump of the hips forward allows the arms to drop (without conscious thought) on plane. Cause and effect if you like. Hips move/bump forward (cause), arms drop on plane (effect)

If you were to move your hips as much as he does in that video your arms would be massively late into impact.

I understand it is an exaggeration of the movement, but for someone who is 'learning' the game without lessons it could easily be misunderstood and taken literally.

As it happens, my pro I hasme working on a similar drill but with the aim of turning my rig leg past the alignment stick in the follow through, ensuring I keep turning to finish.