Upper & Lower Body Disassociation

[lex!]

Completely disagree with the above I'm afraid.

The professionals hit the ball well for a reason. 100% sound fundimentals and technique.

I think every bit of information I have read anywhere on the golf swing always advocates starting the downswing with the lower body. For you to say only pro's should be doing that is innaccurate as, as I have previously stated, they hit the ball well for a reason. Why wouldn't I want to emulate that?

Every single pro, scratch, or decent handiap player I have ever seen has always, without exception, started the downswing with the lower body.

Starting the downswing with the arms is the worst possible thing you could do IMHO.

I start the downswing with feeling of a tiny drop of the right shoulder and a tiny feeling of the ground in my left toe. Then I think the body should support and respond to a free swing of the arms hand and club, and not drive it.

 

[One Planer]

I comes to something when you have to tidy your own thread :rofl:

One thing I always look at, and I know my pro looks at is impact position and where the hips are. Take a look at these:

Luke Donald:

Freddie Couples:

Adam Scott:

Louis 'Whatsisface'

All have their own swings, but all have their hips facing out to 1pm-1.30pm on a clock face, with their hands trailing behind.

This is the sort of thing I'm working towards

 

[lex!]

I comes to something when you have to tidy your own thread :rofl:

One thing I always look at, and I know my pro looks at is impact position and where the hips are. Take a look at these:

Luke Donald:

Freddie Couples:

Adam Scott:

Louis 'Whatsisface'

All have their own swings, but all have their hips facing out to 1pm-1.30pm on a clock face, with their hands trailing behind.

This is the sort of thing I'm working towards

They've also got....er....TALENT !

 

[One Planer]

They've also got....er....TALENT !

Are you saying that this can't be taught?



Because my teaching pro would disagree.

 

[Foxholer]

One thing I always look at, and I know my pro looks at is impact position and where the hips are. Take a look at these:

Luke Donald:

Freddie Couples:

Adam Scott:

Louis 'Whatsisface'

All have their own swings, but all have their hips facing out to 1pm-1.30pm on a clock face, with their hands trailing behind.

This is the sort of thing I'm working towards

Sound reasoning Gareth - if you can do it. For those of us that aren't flexible enough, there are other ways to achieve that, though that's normally there's a cost.

So it's quite reasonable to question the likelihood of success. The fact that your Pro checked your flexibility first indicates that he believes you can, rather than simply trying to get you to emulate the guns even when you are physically incapable of doing so! That would be a bad idea, but I've heard about a few Pros trying. They don't last long as teachers!

Good Luck!

 

[G1BB0]

if Aphibarnrat can do it......

I am sure the majority of us are more flexible than him

 

[Foxholer]

if Aphibarnrat can do it......

I am sure the majority of us are more flexible than him

Greater size does not automatically mean less flexibility!

 

[the_coach]

Completely disagree with the above I'm afraid.

The professionals hit the ball well for a reason. 100% sound fundimentals and technique.

I think every bit of information I have read anywhere on the golf swing always advocates starting the downswing with the lower body. For you to say only pro's should be doing that is innaccurate as, as I have previously stated, they hit the ball well for a reason. Why wouldn't I want to emulate that?

Every single pro, scratch, or decent handiap player I have ever seen has always, without exception, started the downswing with the lower body.

Starting the downswing with the arms is the worst possible thing you could do IMHO.

This is absolutely the case.

 

[the_coach]

What do you do when you throw a ball ?

RHanded: To throw it with any force, you wind and fold your right arm and turn your right shoulder back, this places weight into your instep and the inside of your right foot and into you right hip.
Then the first thing you do is take step onto the inside of your left foot and move more weight against the resistance of the inside of you left foot aginst the ground and you turn you chest and shoulders left which then allows you to straighten your right arm at speed and also release your hinged right wrist and the ball at speed.
Sound familiar?
It should do it's the same motions and distributions of weight and upper body pivot and right arm and wrist release as a well performed golf swing.

 

[Jimbooo]

RHanded: To throw it with any force, you wind and fold your right arm and turn your right shoulder back, this places weight into your instep and the inside of your right foot and into you right hip.
Then the first thing you do is take step onto the inside of your left foot and move more weight against the resistance of the inside of you left foot aginst the ground and you turn you chest and shoulders left which then allows you to straighten your right arm at speed and also release your hinged right wrist and the ball at speed.
Sound familiar?
It should do it's the same motions and distributions of weight and upper body pivot and right arm and wrist release as a well performed golf swing.

Trouble is, I throw left-handed, but play golf right-handed. I throw right-handed like a right numpty!

 

[bobmac]

RHanded: To throw it with any force, you wind and fold your right arm and turn your right shoulder back, this places weight into your instep and the inside of your right foot and into you right hip.
Then the first thing you do is take step onto the inside of your left foot and move more weight against the resistance of the inside of you left foot aginst the ground and you turn you chest and shoulders left which then allows you to straighten your right arm at speed and also release your hinged right wrist and the ball at speed.
Sound familiar?
It should do it's the same motions and distributions of weight and upper body pivot and right arm and wrist release as a well performed golf swing.

See post 54

 

[the_coach]

Some excellent information on this thread for anyone interested.

Semi-related question regarding uncoilingin transition, with regard soley to the hips.

Is the movmement at transition (To get the weight and hips moving forward) based on a slide or rotation?

To be totally correct it's neither a slide or a rotation.
At the point directly before the club, hands & arms and right shoulder start their movement, which is at that point is downwards towards the ground.
The first 'lower body' movement is a pressing into the ball of your left foot, this causes a small chain reaction all the way up the left leg to the left hip, simply because of the anatomy of our bodies.
This consistent pressure, (it stays in the left foot as the leg posts and then the left hip turns and clears and you complete the swing through impact) creates this chain reaction in fractions of a second.
The pressure brings the left ankle back in line over the foot, the ankle brings the knee back in line and the knee moves the left hips first movement of approximately two inches, so the joints from the foot, ankle, knee and hip are drawn back in-line so the leg can post.
Best way to feel this is, (you can do it inside at home if ceiling is high enough) is to make a slow motion swing, and I mean slow motion, but continuos slow motion from start to held finish in balance, your aim is to make it one pace and last as near to 30 seconds as you can, just count ! & 2 & ... as you go through it. (it'll take you a lot of goes to get this right it's a lot harder to do properly than it may seem)
At the top of the backswing your goal is to press downwards into the ground with your ball of your left foot as the first thing you do in this transition back to impact.
You will notice this immediately moves your ankle back, knee, and your left hip the 2" or so left (if your paying particular attention to what you feel as you do this you'll notice that your hip whilst moving this small amount doesn't actually move straight left back to target but in a little diagonal direction angled to the ball target line)

You'll feel this move will also start to bring the club, hands & arms and right shoulder down towards the ground.
It then takes you down to the delivery position your right elbow close into right hip hands and handle opposite your right thigh, the shaft is almost parallel to the ground, the angle in your right wrist is intact, the shaft is also inline and either directly above your toe line or an inch or so in front of your toe line, the shaft is parallel to your ball target line.
The hands then start to release the club into impact and hands above ball lead a forward leaning shaft into impact. And you continue on through to finish.
It's a difficult exercise but it's a truly good one, one I've used many time to good results with the Cat 1 players I coach and have coached. worth doing but not easy to do. If you do it right you will feel what a good transition is in a good golf swing.

Then next time you're on the range repeat this drill, first the super slowmo without a ball. Then do it at a 30% swing speed through a ball (best with an 8i at first off a tee pushed right into the ground or that equivalent height tee if off a mat) once you can do 30% consistently (we're obviously here just focussed on getting the feeling you had in the super slowmo swing through transition, not distance here, but you should be getting decent contact on the back of the ball, down and through to a held full finish) then move up to 50% swing speed, then 75% then to your comfortable 85% full swing, don't cheat, if you don't get the 50% go back to 30% get it right before you move on to the next swing speed.

So that's why it's not a left hip slide back at transition start.
If you slide your hip back towards target it won't put the arrangement of all the joints in your left leg back in line properly in the right order to be able to 'post' and 'clear' correctly. Most people who slide their hips move the left hip to fast and consequently too far left which then pulls your knee and ankle too far left and you'll get bowing out towards target of your left leg which will play havoc with a proper consistent strike, and will leave you with nothing to either post against properly or turn and clear against properly so if you do slide your hips first you'll get a lot of inconsistent contact at impact.

It's not a clear and turn straight at transition start either as this just throws your right hip straight out towards target line which then throws club hand arms right shoulder and upper body out to target line too, hips spinout shoulders and upper body spin out and in no time you've got a very bad out to in swing which all causes a myriad of bad contacts and terrible shots.

 

[the_coach]

See post 54

Did do, it makes no real difference to the understanding of what actually happens, bio mechanically in throwing a ball, which is completely similar at it's core to making a good golf swing.

Something is only simple and repeatable if you can do it correctly and well.

If someone can keep it simple and repeatedly play golf well, then good luck to them. The majority of amateur club golfers can't, they keep it 'simple' and consistently play badly.
The percentage of single figure golfers worldwide is a single digit percentage out of the whole number worldwide who play the game.
Get to the lower end of the scale of Cat 1 from 2 to +4, and it becomes a fraction of that single digit percentage.
These numbers haven't got any better and have been about the same for well over 50 years. The majority of amateur golfers don't take lessons, those that have taken a lesson or some lessons usually don't keep that consistent through there golfing life. The majority of Tour players on every level of tour take coaching on a regular basis through their career, their are a few exceptions but they are in a very very small minority who haven't, hard to think of many who have never taken a lesson of any kind at some stage from junior to the Tour player, Bubba being the only one that immediately springs to mind.

As soon as you ask some one to throw a ball a lot of people can, many can't, not at least what you would call properly.

Some kids when they start baseball find being a pitcher fairly easy, the majority don't, you can teach these kids who can't do it well, to improve, once you show them the technique involved.
Ask someone to throw a ball at a small target at speed and it becomes much more difficult to do it well repeatedly.

 

[Khamelion]

What 'the_coach' has written in post #72 confirms what my teacher has been trying to get me to do, but by reading the same, but in a different way from a different person has helped me understand that whole process a load better, it's filled in the gaps for me.

Thank you for that, very much appreciated.

 

[Foxholer]

So TC!

Would it be better (when practicing) to be 'more aware' of getting the weight shift to the ball of the lead foot and to post (a fairly natural pair of actions) before the arms start down, with the correct hip movement being pretty automatic, rather than trying to manufacture hip movements and hoping the left leg has 'done the necessary'?

 

[the_coach]

What 'the_coach' has written in post #72 confirms what my teacher has been trying to get me to do, but by reading the same, but in a different way from a different person has helped me understand that whole process a load better, it's filled in the gaps for me.

Thank you for that, very much appreciated.

Cheers, hope it helps you.

As a postscript to all that:

It all presupposes of course that the golfer has wound up in the backswing in the right way.

So from correct address posture and a one piece takeaway, you have start back over a solid stance in your legs, and your hips have not swayed to the right away from target.

If an alignment rod was in the ground next to your right heel and vertical to be 1 inch away from your right hip at belt height, when your hands pass your right thigh going back, shoulders already turning (right shoulder back and away from target line) your torso, abs, will start to turn your right hip inside that rod without touching it (or at worst just brushing it but not knocking it right and away from vertical)

All this against a flexed right leg, that stays softly flexed to the top, weight importantly staying all the way through this turn to the top on the inside of your right foot, spine angle set at address stays all the way back to the top (also all the way through to impact as well) You'll feel the pressure build into the inside of your right thigh to the top if you're doing this correctly.

Your vertical head height shouldn't change, keep level by keeping the posture spine angle and the flex in your hips you had at address, you bend over to create this spine angle from your hips and not from your waist.
Your head can move right but only a couple inches max as you continue your shoulder turn/body pivot, your left chest moving over your right thigh.

When your shoulder turn/body pivot stops, so should your arms. no extra lifting of the arms in an attempt to search for extra power that won't give it but hurt the strike as you'll throw your body and arms sync to far out.

To a similar point the backswing as just said stops when the shoulder turn/body pivot does, don't then bend your arms at the elbows in a search for extra backswing length and supposed extra power as this will do exactly the same in destroying the sync between your arms & club and the turn of your body through impact.

It's this point now at the top of this correctly wound up backswing that the transition point spoken about in the previous post (72) starts, doing it will give you a "feeling" that your upper body arms hands and club "pause" in actuality they don't it's just the change in motion from turning back to starting down.

 

[the_coach]

So TC!

Would it be better (when practicing) to be 'more aware' of getting the weight shift to the ball of the lead foot and to post (a fairly natural pair of actions) before the arms start down, with the correct hip movement being pretty automatic, rather than trying to manufacture hip movements and hoping the left leg has 'done the necessary'?

When practicing the slow motion drills I outlined in order to feel what a transition should feel like, if, this is a particular part of the swing that either someone just has never really got, or is having trouble with.
Then yes, it would be better for them to feel the weight pressing downwards directly in to the ground as a lot of folks when putting weight into their lead foot will be focussed on putting that weight wrongly towards the target and will jump that weight wrongly onto the outside of the lead foot which will slide their hips too far towards target and from that point their leg won't post correctly or automatically neither will their hips clear correctly or automatically as they will be in a blocked position and their arms and hands and upper body will have to make compensatory movement to be able to put the club onto the ball, but it won't be with correct impact conditions.

Weight into the left at start of transition, the correct posting of the left leg, and clearing of the right hip, all done in the correct and timed sequence, are only a "fairly natural pair of actions" if you can already do them.
Anything is "fairly natural" if you can already do it, the majority of golfers can't and that transition point plus the first move away from the ball are the two things that most golfers find most difficult. To someone who can do either or both well this will be to them "natural" and easy.
As with the answer to the first part of your question, the answer to hip action part:- correct hip action is only automatic if you can do it, the majority of golfers simply don't have that correct action at all.
Some won't have it, and will have no chance of doing it all, because of the position of their pelvis is in the address posture, and the fact that they don't make their spine angle from the hip sockets but bend from the waist.
Some may have the correct posture but will sway right off the ball, and then be in the wrong place relative to their ball position, some having swayed right will just sway back left too far, so the correct hip action is far from automatic.
Something is only simple, correct, automatic if you are able to do it in the first place, most aren't, if they were the majority of golfers would be in possession of extremely efficient and good golf swings which we know not to be the case.

 

[Foxholer]

I think I get the message!

There aren't really any short-cuts!

Thanks!

 

[John]

Some really good points here. It's something that I've been struggling with recently too.

 

[bobmac]

Something is only simple and repeatable if you can do it correctly

It's the pros job to help the golfer achieve this with as few swing thoughts as possible.
eg
A pupil I had recently had a fast snatchy takeaway, an overswing, he was trying to hit the ball too hard and also had too much weight on the outside of his front foot at the end of the swing.
I simply asked him to finish the swing in a balanced position.
That one swing thought cured all 4 problems.

While some people would like to know every detail of the anatomical swing, the vast majority of the people I teach dont. They just want easy to understand instruction.

To throw a ball, to drive a car or to ride a bike need skills that have to be learned and if taught properly, the person can perform these skills without having to think about how you do it.

The majority of amateur golfers don't take lessons

The majority of amateur club golfers can't, they keep it 'simple' and consistently play badly.

I put it to you that the majority of amateur golfers play badly because they don't take lessons and instead, have 50 'fixes' from other golfers running round their head.

All I'm saying is dont fill the pupils head with stuff he doesn't need to know but keep instruction clear, achievable and easy to understand. Then it's up to the pupil to practice what has been taught. Sadly, many don't.