Understanding dynamic loft and its application

[turkish]

what should your forward shaft lean be and should this change from club to club? I know this may differ from person to person but just looking for general relationship between clubs

Recently had a lesson for long irons and was told I was hitting too far down, resulting in big divots and if ball 1st strike wasn't perfect resulted in fat shots. At the time I was hitting mid irons fairly consistently.

Since then and with practice my long irons have improved no end with probably less shaft lean and divot but a more consistent strike tho I do wish I had a bit more distance(4 iron carries about 175). However although I'm still fairly consistent with mid irons since this lesson thin shots have crept in every now and again.

I'm fairly sure it's due to dynamic loft. My ball position at setup is pretty spot on from when I've had lessons.

 

[the_coach]

what should your forward shaft lean be and should this change from club to club? I know this may differ from person to person but just looking for general relationship between clubs

Recently had a lesson for long irons and was told I was hitting too far down, resulting in big divots and if ball 1st strike wasn't perfect resulted in fat shots. At the time I was hitting mid irons fairly consistently.

Since then and with practice my long irons have improved no end with probably less shaft lean and divot but a more consistent strike tho I do wish I had a bit more distance(4 iron carries about 175). However although I'm still fairly consistent with mid irons since this lesson thin shots have crept in every now and again.

I'm fairly sure it's due to dynamic loft. My ball position at setup is pretty spot on from when I've had lessons.

the ways too improvement would be, given what's said here, looking to control where the 'low point' in your swing motion is
would look to where your weight is, balance, good connected width in the swing motion going back, etc

low point falling too soon in the swing before the ball so fats etc, mid irons being helped by a flip action so catching the ball again after the low point clubhead level or slightly on the up so why the 'distance carry' not being acheived - same low point too soon in the downswing issue as the fats swing likely little too narrow & steep

steep angle of attack is not really down to forwards shaft lean at impact, you can have a very steep attack with very little forwards shaft lean you can have a shallow AoA with ways too much FSL

good or optimum 'down' in a swing motion does not mean the path into the ball should be steep

optimum impact conditions have a club head (ball on ground) approach 'down' but at a pretty ways shallow angle into the ball with a forwards leaning shaft that reduces loft at strike to give an optimum dynamic loft

both shallower -AoA & a forwards leaning shaft importantly deliver the club face at an angle to produce strike on the correct part of the face, cg (center gravity) more inline with the cg of the ball & inline with the target direction - give the best powerful strike for optimum transfer of energy to ball so best carry distance for the swing motion

look at a 6i - PGA average CHS 92mph but with a -AoA around -4º FSL will be around 6º (some little ways more some less)

but CHS plays into where the AoA & FLS angles are around, slower than the above speed will mean the -AoA & the FSL are not quite as great to produce the optimum strike (but these are small value differences)

look at the LPGA (speeds nearer to the average Club player) 6i around 78mph AoA will be around -2.3 - again ballpark figures, so again the FSL will be lesser maybes around 4º as a ballpark fig

how these optimum ball park figs are produced though is all about having good swing sequencing, good balance, good weight transfer, good connected width etc

you can only get 'good' AoA 'good' FSL plus all the other 'good' impact conditions, with all that goes into having a good sequenced swing motion, downswing starts from the ground up, hips have to clear, weight has to be on the lead side head behind the ball at impact all with good rotation

 

[backwoodsman]

the ways too improvement would be, given what's said here, looking to control where the 'low point' in your swing motion is
would look to where your weight is, balance, good connected width in the swing motion going back, etc

low point falling too soon in the swing before the ball so fats etc, mid irons being helped by a flip action so catching the ball again after the low point clubhead level or slightly on the up so why the 'distance carry' not being acheived - same low point too soon in the downswing issue as the fats swing likely little too narrow & steep

steep angle of attack is not really down to forwards shaft lean at impact, you can have a very steep attack with very little forwards shaft lean you can have a shallow AoA with ways too much FSL

good or optimum 'down' in a swing motion does not mean the path into the ball should be steep

optimum impact conditions have a club head (ball on ground) approach 'down' but at a pretty ways shallow angle into the ball with a forwards leaning shaft that reduces loft at strike to give an optimum dynamic loft

both shallower -AoA & a forwards leaning shaft importantly deliver the club face at an angle to produce strike on the correct part of the face, cg (center gravity) more inline with the cg of the ball & inline with the target direction - give the best powerful strike for optimum transfer of energy to ball so best carry distance for the swing motion

look at a 6i - PGA average CHS 92mph but with a -AoA around -4º FSL will be around 6º (some little ways more some less)

but CHS plays into where the AoA & FLS angles are around, slower than the above speed will mean the -AoA & the FSL are not quite as great to produce the optimum strike (but these are small value differences)

look at the LPGA (speeds nearer to the average Club player) 6i around 78mph AoA will be around -2.3 - again ballpark figures, so again the FSL will be lesser maybes around 4º as a ballpark fig

how these optimum ball park figs are produced though is all about having good swing sequencing, good balance, good weight transfer, good connected width etc

you can only get 'good' AoA 'good' FSL plus all the other 'good' impact conditions, with all that goes into having a good sequenced swing motion, downswing starts from the ground up, hips have to clear, weight has to be on the lead side head behind the ball at impact all with good rotation

 

[virtuocity]

The dummies guide to The Coach's (excellent) advice.

1. I see what you're saying but it's a fats and thins issue, so you need to be thinking less about forcing shaft lean and instead work on proper balance and staying connected to make sure you hit the ball, then ground first

2. Angle of attack and forward shaft lean aren't always connected. You have 2 seconds to make a swing, don't think about it.

3. Instead, if you've got time to practice, work on sequencing. Get a pro to check you're in a good backswing position, then it's about unloading. Start the weight transfer from feeling the feet or knees moving to target (whatever 'feel' works) then hips, then arms. This will give you power, consistent strikes and consistent face-to-path.

Mate, I think you are where I was when I was stuck on a high handicap. I was all about positions, gear and in particularly shaft lean.

In my humble opinion, most people should get down to 18 or less if they practice the right things. It's getting down from mid teens to single figures that requires some hard work (short game etc, course management, strength, which I struggle with due to pies and a lack of practice time). These 'right things' are:

1. Hitting the ball then ground. IMO the failure to do so is pretty much due to not getting weight on front foot at impact, most likely caused by swaying as our stupid brains think this is the way to build speed.

2. Consistent miss. I am becoming proficient in hitting fades off the tee and pulls with irons/hybrids. I do this because I come 'Over The Top'. I fade with woods because I flip hard, but not hard enough for the longer shaft to close the face to path. The shorter iron shafts allow me all the time in the world to flip so my club face is closed to path. A little offset on the irons and hybrids augments this. I could change my driver to the draw setting, but I'd much rather play a fade than a pull with a driver. Personal preference.

Should I fix this? 2 years ago, I would have booked lessons and hit 10,000 range balls. Now, I just aim a tad left with driver, and plenty right with my hybrids and a touch right with short irons.

I have watched every Over The Top, Strong grip, How to turn a Fade into a Draw video on YouTube. I've chased a driver draw for 4 years (even after a forum member spent time with me [6 hours] helping me develop a fade) and it has been a disaster. It's freeing standing on the first tee, aiming a tad left and swinging as fast as possible towards the left trap, knowing that you'll miss it.

I'm not recommending a flip, or fade, or pull- I'm suggesting that once you've mastered the 'wee ball, then big ball' trick, then it's time to find your natural shot shape and stick with it FOR NOW.

Most people I play with on here will agree I'm not the best golfer on here, but I rarely duff it. They would also agree that I rarely find bunkers because I know where my irons will miss. My bad days are caused by bad driving (always a work in progress) and short game woes. For example, at Gainsborough this year, I played not too bad in each of the four rounds, but I must have 3-putted at least 5 times per round. Ultimately, I would have won the whole event if I had putted better.

3. With your ball striking improved and your miss found, you can now start to learn golf properly- from scoring positions. I spent my first two years becoming a master of chipping out sideways. This didn't help me- I'd have been better dropping back on to the fairway in practice rounds as it taught me nothing.

I hope this post doesn't come across as patronising and I'm certainly no expert in golf instruction. I'm just someone who had information overload at the outset of taking up this hobby. Whilst a lot of advice was great the sources that I went to were inconsistent with each other, causing a bit of cognitive jelly. I just wanted to let you know what I found, in the hope it saves you some time.

Get yourself down to the teens, then practice your short game until you love putting (let me know what that feels like) and then, as a 10 handicapper, it's maybe the time to start discussing forward shaft lean.

Edited to add: but for some people, including me, talking about forward shaft lean and other swing theory concepts is interesting. The more posters discussing this the better IMO- but just be careful to pick and choose what you want to attempt to integrate into your swing!

 

[turkish]

Cheers for the input Dave.... I probably do bog myself down with too much technical thought than what's needed at my level BUT in the couple of months I've only done this away from the course... On course I rarely have any swing thoughts other than target and tempo and it's been going well.

I do like learning a lot of the science on it I think it's just the way I am. Whether I can achieve certain aspects is another thing. I have a swing pro which I like to use as a checkpoint in how my swing is going but it's been a long work in progress but with helping lessons and even just swinging the club twice a week I have improved a lot over the past year. Not least in course management. Still a long way to go though.

Will need to get a game soon

 

[Oddsocks]

So do I breathe at the start of the swing or at the top to achieve the optimum balance between AoA and shaft lean?

 

[AmandaJR]

A useful contribution to the thread...

 

[penfold]

Check this video out really helped me understand loft and shaft lean....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szy_dc-5YZE

 

[Val]

IMO uneducated opinion, you can deal with shaft lean to a degree with ball position particularly with short irons. If your hands are centred and the ball is in the middle of your stance naturally the shaft will have some forward lean as the clubhead is behind the ball as the natural position of the shaft then will lean forward, move the ball back a fraction and you'll naturally get more.

Dont over think it, it's the worst thing you can do.

 

[lex!]

The dummies guide to The Coach's (excellent) advice.

1. I see what you're saying but it's a fats and thins issue, so you need to be thinking less about forcing shaft lean and instead work on proper balance and staying connected to make sure you hit the ball, then ground first

2. Angle of attack and forward shaft lean aren't always connected. You have 2 seconds to make a swing, don't think about it.

3. Instead, if you've got time to practice, work on sequencing. Get a pro to check you're in a good backswing position, then it's about unloading. Start the weight transfer from feeling the feet or knees moving to target (whatever 'feel' works) then hips, then arms. This will give you power, consistent strikes and consistent face-to-path.

Mate, I think you are where I was when I was stuck on a high handicap. I was all about positions, gear and in particularly shaft lean.

In my humble opinion, most people should get down to 18 or less if they practice the right things. It's getting down from mid teens to single figures that requires some hard work (short game etc, course management, strength, which I struggle with due to pies and a lack of practice time). These 'right things' are:

1. Hitting the ball then ground. IMO the failure to do so is pretty much due to not getting weight on front foot at impact, most likely caused by swaying as our stupid brains think this is the way to build speed.

2. Consistent miss. I am becoming proficient in hitting fades off the tee and pulls with irons/hybrids. I do this because I come 'Over The Top'. I fade with woods because I flip hard, but not hard enough for the longer shaft to close the face to path. The shorter iron shafts allow me all the time in the world to flip so my club face is closed to path. A little offset on the irons and hybrids augments this. I could change my driver to the draw setting, but I'd much rather play a fade than a pull with a driver. Personal preference.

Should I fix this? 2 years ago, I would have booked lessons and hit 10,000 range balls. Now, I just aim a tad left with driver, and plenty right with my hybrids and a touch right with short irons.

I have watched every Over The Top, Strong grip, How to turn a Fade into a Draw video on YouTube. I've chased a driver draw for 4 years (even after a forum member spent time with me [6 hours] helping me develop a fade) and it has been a disaster. It's freeing standing on the first tee, aiming a tad left and swinging as fast as possible towards the left trap, knowing that you'll miss it.

I'm not recommending a flip, or fade, or pull- I'm suggesting that once you've mastered the 'wee ball, then big ball' trick, then it's time to find your natural shot shape and stick with it FOR NOW.

Most people I play with on here will agree I'm not the best golfer on here, but I rarely duff it. They would also agree that I rarely find bunkers because I know where my irons will miss. My bad days are caused by bad driving (always a work in progress) and short game woes. For example, at Gainsborough this year, I played not too bad in each of the four rounds, but I must have 3-putted at least 5 times per round. Ultimately, I would have won the whole event if I had putted better.

3. With your ball striking improved and your miss found, you can now start to learn golf properly- from scoring positions. I spent my first two years becoming a master of chipping out sideways. This didn't help me- I'd have been better dropping back on to the fairway in practice rounds as it taught me nothing.

I hope this post doesn't come across as patronising and I'm certainly no expert in golf instruction. I'm just someone who had information overload at the outset of taking up this hobby. Whilst a lot of advice was great the sources that I went to were inconsistent with each other, causing a bit of cognitive jelly. I just wanted to let you know what I found, in the hope it saves you some time.

Get yourself down to the teens, then practice your short game until you love putting (let me know what that feels like) and then, as a 10 handicapper, it's maybe the time to start discussing forward shaft lean.

Edited to add: but for some people, including me, talking about forward shaft lean and other swing theory concepts is interesting. The more posters discussing this the better IMO- but just be careful to pick and choose what you want to attempt to integrate into your swing!

An excellent post, and what a good read.

I am also battling an OTT swing with lessons and 100's balls and getting worse. All I want to do now is find the middle of the club face. I wish I could carry a 4-iron 175yds.


With regard to fwd shaft lean, I was taught that the club should sit or lean naturally, as an extension of my left arm with the ball in front. Then, you don't 'hit down', but the low point of your swing occurs beyond the ball. As he said to me, instead of leaning an 8 iron artificially, why not take a 7 iron?

 

[UlyssesSky]

First of all, @ turkish, I used to have the same problem (many fat shots) and had some lessons to work on it. Not once in those lessons has the pro even just mentioned shaft lean...

Either my pro is just really bad (which I don't think, seeing the results of the lessons) or shaft lean doesn't have anything to do with the problem...

Just to add to virtuocity's great advice:

The dummies guide to The Coach's (excellent) advice.

1. I see what you're saying but it's a fats and thins issue, so you need to be thinking less about forcing shaft lean and instead work on proper balance and staying connected to make sure you hit the ball, then ground first

It's also important to understand that fat and thin shots often are the result of the same swing flaw: a swing that bottoms out too far right (for a right hander). Many people who hit it fat try to stand more upright to avoid hitting the ground. If they change nothing else the swing still bottoms out too far right, only now the bottom point is above the ground, so by the time the club reaches the ball it's already on the way up again (positive AoA), which leads to thinned shots.

3. Instead, if you've got time to practice, work on sequencing. Get a pro to check you're in a good backswing position, then it's about unloading. Start the weight transfer from feeling the feet or knees moving to target (whatever 'feel' works) then hips, then arms. This will give you power, consistent strikes and consistent face-to-path.

Weight transfer is probably one of the moste important parts to move the bottom point of a swing further to the left. If you get stuck on you back foot, it's very hard to make ball first contact.

See virtuocity again:

1. Hitting the ball then ground. IMO the failure to do so is pretty much due to not getting weight on front foot at impact, most likely caused by swaying as our stupid brains think this is the way to build speed.

Can't put it much better than this. Stay "on top of the ball" during the back swing, than start your downswing with a good weightshift to the front foot.

To practice this, put your ball one or two inches further forward than you usually would with that iron. This way you'll be forced to make a proper weight shift if you don't want to catch it fat/thin.