bobmac
Major Champion
Wrong
Unbeflippinlievable.
- Thread starter bobmac
- Start date
Wrong
AmandaJR
Money List Winner
Thanks - simples :thup:
Sort of !! But it does seem that those 5 elements being right (regardless of all the other confusing stuff) will be more than enough to play this game well.
I must practice more off the course as love being out there so much that I get less range and short game specific work done. I play on my own and a few balls etc when the course is quiet but need to be a bit more precise and scientific about it if I want to continue to improve - law of diminishing returns and all that.
SGC001
Challenge Tour Pro
It might well be Bobmac, i did write I hadn't checked it for accuracy; I still haven't as I don't have the time at present.
I included it the link as it at least identified the 14 principles they are arguing influence the laws. Thought some might be interested in that area.
bobmac
Major Champion
SocketRocket
Ryder Cup Winner
New ball flight laws, old ball flight laws. The old system worked perfectly well for a hell of a long time. Never saw the likes of Nichlaus and Palmer struggling to shape the ball. But I also understand the scientific approach with the new ball flight laws. Go with whatever suits yourself. I have managed for over 20 years now with the old ways so a little bit stand offish when it comes to the new ones. I can shape it left, I can shape it right. I can also cock it up and hit a big hook....
I will guarantee to you that the old method does not work, it can't as it defies physics. Many people have been able to shape the ball and have done it by 'feel'. People Like Jack Nicklaus taught the wrong method but didnt do what he said he did. Just because someone is a great golf player it does not mean they understand the technologies, they are not Engineers or Scientists, they tend to use a coach who teaches them how to do it. In saying this some top coaches like Ledbetter have taught the wrong methods.
The very best way to become a great striker of the golf ball is to centre your focus on what happens when the clubface strikes the golf ball. If you understand this and direct your practice on making the correct ball/clubface impact then by and large the swing will take care of it's self. (By and large).
If this sounds interesting then get hold of a copy of 'Nail It' By Joe Hagen, the 3 Skills coach. He believes that people should learn golf by focus on ball impact and not be taught how to swing the club, he thinks this will happen by it's self.. I think he is right.
Bob,
Did you get my PM from last night and does it have any bearing to your rant in terms of the new laws?
Did you get my PM from last night and does it have any bearing to your rant in terms of the new laws?
MadAdey
Money List Winner
We have had this discussion before on here regarding the new swing laws. Regarding the bit about Ben Hogan I agree with that 100%. I was taught to hit the ball not spend too much time worrying about how perfect the club is in the different parts of the swing. I do not know how I shape the ball if I am using the new laws and just think I do it the old way. I am not saying for one minute that the new laws are wrong as I have already had these explained to me on this forum and they make perfect sense. But on the other hand I am not one those players that spend too much time trying to get tied up in the technicalities of the golf swing. I find what happens is I get lost with how to do it correctly when I do. I prefer to visit my pro who is a great teacher, also with being young he is more open to new ideas coming out. I have always played with feel and can just feel when I have made a bad swing and what happened. Never really thought too much about the club face in relation to the swing path.
SGC001
Challenge Tour Pro
No worries
I got real confused when I first saw some stuff on youtube about the new ball flight laws and thought "it's changed already" but it hadn't and was what I understood it to be. Although it adds a bit more emphasis on angle of approach.
I wonder how new the ball 'new' ball flight laws are?
bobmac
Major Champion
I was taught them in 2004 so before then
SGC001
Challenge Tour Pro
http://www.ebookbyte.com/admin/upload/Sports/The Science of Golf (www.eBookByte.com).pdf
This a link to the physics of golf by Jorgensen
t's a 2nd edition and I'm sure this is early 90's (works computer doesn't like a lot of sites)
This a link to the physics of golf by Jorgensen
t's a 2nd edition and I'm sure this is early 90's (works computer doesn't like a lot of sites)
SGC001
Challenge Tour Pro
Ok I've been trying to find out about when these teaching discrepancies occured, difficult on this computer.
http://johngrahamgolf.com/blog/pga-ball-flight-laws-dr-gary-wiren/
This guy seems to be discussing the issue of correctness of the American PGA's teaching of the 5 laws dependant on time. They also mention '9 ball flight laws' or something to that effect and seem to suggest this may have been where some confusion crept in.
Does anyone know if the 9 shot shape descriptions are American terms or part of the D-plane trackman stuff. I've been more familiar with the terms straight, push, pull, draw, fade, hook, slice, pull hook and push slice to describe the 9 flight paths.
Edit: I also saw in the article it indicating that the ball started closer to the face than path in 1968 book Search for the Perfect swing, so I'm still searching for just how new the current ball flight laws are.
http://johngrahamgolf.com/blog/pga-ball-flight-laws-dr-gary-wiren/
This guy seems to be discussing the issue of correctness of the American PGA's teaching of the 5 laws dependant on time. They also mention '9 ball flight laws' or something to that effect and seem to suggest this may have been where some confusion crept in.
Does anyone know if the 9 shot shape descriptions are American terms or part of the D-plane trackman stuff. I've been more familiar with the terms straight, push, pull, draw, fade, hook, slice, pull hook and push slice to describe the 9 flight paths.
Edit: I also saw in the article it indicating that the ball started closer to the face than path in 1968 book Search for the Perfect swing, so I'm still searching for just how new the current ball flight laws are.
Last edited:
JustOne
Ryder Cup Winner
Weird, trackman didn't even exist then and the PGA still hasn't acknowledged them so why would they teach them? Most of your tuition (since I joined the forum in 2009) has been pertaining to the old ball flight laws.
Still, that aside I'm pleased that you are now 'on board' so to speak... now how do we get you to stop hitting a pull-hook around a tree?
bobmac
Major Champion
I had a long discussion with one of the swing consultants at the Belfry about old v new.
that was in 2004.
I was wrong of course as was the Faldo video I based my arguements on.
I dont get what you mean when you say my tuition on here has been based on the old laws?
that was in 2004.
I was wrong of course as was the Faldo video I based my arguements on.
I dont get what you mean when you say my tuition on here has been based on the old laws?
JustOne
Ryder Cup Winner
Some pros/instructors were saying the right things years ago but no one really listened and it didn't filter down into 'standard practice' so everyone was still taught the wrong methods at ground level. Now there is a new swing methodology that is also scoffed at.... seems you can't win. Strange that instruction should be forced to change from the ground up.. you'd think it would come from the top down.
JustOne
Ryder Cup Winner
It's in the past... I like the new Bobmac! :ears:
It does really piss me off when I see so much proliferation on the web of the WRONG WAY to hit a shot, I've seen Poulter/Rose/Leadbetter/ ..actually the list is endless, all give wrong information. The amount of websites showing how to hit a fade or a draw incorrectly is astonishing. There has been a lot of misunderstanding because of the lack of conformity, people (as I have done in this post) refer to a fade as a fade when it should actually be a pull-fade OR a push-fade, that's the only way to understand what is happening. At least things are improving as more people start to understand the correct way to hit a push-draw, how to hit the ball on the back of the circle etc etc. Thank god for trackman! is all I can say.
bobmac
Major Champion
You still wont get me using S&T
http://yoursmiles.org/k-babe.php
[url=http://yoursmiles.org/m-quarrel.php]
[/URL]
JustOne
Ryder Cup Winner
SGC001
Challenge Tour Pro
Justone this is the bit I'm on about definition of terms.
If I refer to a draw I'm talking about a ball that starts right of target and curves back onto the target. I don't see the need for push draw as by definition it's starting right of target (talking right handers). If I was talking about a draw and you a push draw I think I'd know what we were on about. However, I am more familiar with the ball flight laws than these definitions. I've seen the trackman stuff, but just translate it to the terms I'm familiar with automatically.
Is it been defined in relation to your aim as opposed to target?
Because I'm talking target I can aim right to put path in to out, close the face relative to the path; but not the target and hit a draw. What do you refer to this as? Is it a pull draw?
How is the term push draw defined?
Is it just a means of clarification and understanding?
How was the definition arrived at?
If I refer to a draw I'm talking about a ball that starts right of target and curves back onto the target. I don't see the need for push draw as by definition it's starting right of target (talking right handers). If I was talking about a draw and you a push draw I think I'd know what we were on about. However, I am more familiar with the ball flight laws than these definitions. I've seen the trackman stuff, but just translate it to the terms I'm familiar with automatically.
Is it been defined in relation to your aim as opposed to target?
Because I'm talking target I can aim right to put path in to out, close the face relative to the path; but not the target and hit a draw. What do you refer to this as? Is it a pull draw?
How is the term push draw defined?
Is it just a means of clarification and understanding?
How was the definition arrived at?
SGC001
Challenge Tour Pro
You still wont get me using S&T
http://yoursmiles.org/k-babe.php
[url=http://yoursmiles.org/m-quarrel.php]
[/URL]
I think I'll be giving it a go left handed, along with learning the game fromthe green backwards and a more traditional golf swing.
Putting was weird, I could putt with a reverse overlap grip, but I seemed to favour no overlapping of the hands and really had to work on keeping my grip soft.
JustOne
Ryder Cup Winner
The term push-draw would be a ball that starts right of your toe line with draw spin, likewise a push-fade would start right of your toe line with cut spin. Anything that is defined as pull would start left of your toe line however this shot is a BIG NO NO in terms of impact (especially with an iron) as it requires an almost zero angle of attack else you'll be trying to hit it after the divot
In your example above of aiming right and hitting the pull-draw (more often a pull-hook) it is a pull as the ball never gets to the right side of your toe line. When people refer to this as a draw they are not defining it properly.. when they post "I close my stance and hit a nice draw" they are in fact hitting a pull-draw across themselves which is not the same. It goes low and left, often hooks and is very often fatted
