Do all PGA pros teach the same if you are new?

[Backsticks]

In my opinion you must use your arms and wrists as the main speed and control generators in the golf swing, the body can only assist them. Good golfers can hit the ball almost as far when kneeling down.

Legs hips and torso contribute about 85% of the power of a swing. Arms wrists about 15%. It has been well researched and quantified beyond debate at this stage. 3d motions, force plates etc, have measured it pretty accurately. It was suspected for a long time by some physics/academic researchers in the biomechanics, while the golf professionals were just more speculative and anecdote and feel based which fogged real understanding of the golf swing for so long. It was a case of the blind leading the blind, but a lot has changed in the last 10-20 years.
The wrists and arms simply dont have the muscle power to generate the clubhead speed. For most high handicappers, wrist interference is more counter productive, slowing club release speed rather than acting as a simply hinge.

 

[SocketRocket]

Legs hips and torso contribute about 85% of the power of a swing. Arms wrists about 15%. It has been well researched and quantified beyond debate at this stage. 3d motions, force plates etc, have measured it pretty accurately. It was suspected for a long time by some physics/academic researchers in the biomechanics, while the golf professionals were just more speculative and anecdote and feel based which fogged real understanding of the golf swing for so long. It was a case of the blind leading the blind, but a lot has changed in the last 10-20 years.
The wrists and arms simply dont have the muscle power to generate the clubhead speed. For most high handicappers, wrist interference is more counter productive, slowing club release speed rather than acting as a simply hinge.

I can't disagree more, common sense shows your theory wrong.
Try hitting a golf ball by rotating your hips and torso with wooden arms and wrists, it will go a very short distance indeed, the hips and torso can only rotate at slow speed, actually your hips shouldn't even rotate in the golf swing that's an illusion, they should move backwards and forwards in a linear motion. Your arms and wrists however can produce very fast speeds as they produce the leverage that creates acceleration of the club head. I've seen someone hit a ball great distances from a kneeling position or sat in a chair. Of course the torso, shoulders and hips assist the arms and wrists but are secondary in speed production.

Open your mind to this subject, take a look at the attached video and try some others from this man. He has hit the golf ball 473 yards in a long drive comp so he understands something about generating club head speed.

 

[Deleted member 29109]

I can't disagree more, common sense shows your theory wrong.
Try hitting a golf ball by rotating your hips and torso with wooden arms and wrists, it will go a very short distance indeed, the hips and torso can only rotate at slow speed, actually your hips shouldn't even rotate in the golf swing that's an illusion, they should move backwards and forwards in a linear motion. Your arms and wrists however can produce very fast speeds as they produce the leverage that creates acceleration of the club head. I've seen someone hit a ball great distances from a kneeling position or sat in a chair. Of course the torso, shoulders and hips assist the arms and wrists but are secondary in speed production.

Open your mind to this subject, take a look at the attached video and try some others from this man. He has hit the golf ball 473 yards in a long drive comp so he understands something about generating club head speed.

I think that video proves exactly the opposite of what you want it to. Look how much is still uses the ground with the one leg, and the other that isn’t on the ground. There is still a lot going on with his lower body and torso.

Show us a video of him hitting a 300 yard drive with ‘just’ his arms and wrists.

 

[Crow]

For me, most of the clubhead speed comes from the release, the release is performed primarily by the hands, wrists and arms.

The body turn helps in timing the release and adds a little speed. If you look at many good ball strikers their body turn slows at the moment of impact and then speeds up again.

Good luck to anyone who wants to quantify each element.

 

[SocketRocket]

I think that video proves exactly the opposite of what you want it to. Look how much is still uses the ground with the one leg, and the other that isn’t on the ground. There is still a lot going on with his lower body and torso.

Show us a video of him hitting a 300 yard drive with ‘just’ his arms and wrists.

I didn't say the arms and wrists are the ONLY speed generator, I said they are the MAIN generators of clubhead speed. Try looking through some of his videos and listen to his explanations of ball striking.

If you disagree then see how far you can hit a ball with inactive arms and wrists, I'll tell you now it won't be far.

 

[Dilly75]

Interesting debate so far. So typically in any learning environment there are big gains early on then it gets harder to make the gains or the gains are smaller for the time and effort put in.

I don't expect miracles from a forum debate which out being able to watch my swing. But typically what obvious aspects of swing will increase club head speed and ball distance?

I will book my next lesson in the next week or so but looking for things to think about when I'm playing in the rain later today

Cheers

 

[Deleted member 29109]

I didn't say the arms and wrists are the ONLY speed generator, I said they are the MAIN generators of clubhead speed. Try looking through some of his videos and listen to his explanations of ball striking.

If you disagree then see how far you can hit a ball with inactive arms and wrists, I'll tell you now it won't be far.

I didn’t mention inactive arms and wrists.

 

[SocketRocket]

I didn’t mention inactive arms and wrists.

You asked me to show a video of him hitting 300 yards only using his arms and wrists. I never suggested he could.

 

[Backsticks]

I didn't say the arms and wrists are the ONLY speed generator, I said they are the MAIN generators of clubhead speed. Try looking through some of his videos and listen to his explanations of ball striking.

If you disagree then see how far you can hit a ball with inactive arms and wrists, I'll tell you now it won't be far.

The are far from the main even. But a lot of misinformation on the golf swing is still about, since golf knowledge or lack of, was almost exclusively coming from professional golfers. Who in truth were just shooting in the dark, and other than a simplistic approach of copying what they guessed might be the way to do it, had little basis for teaching anything. A lot of those falsehoods are still widespread as a result.

Technology to measure what is truly going on in a golf swing, and the involvement of serious study by academics with a proper grounding in physics and biomechanics, have finally started to solve the riddle over the last 20 years. Some professionals are picking up on what is coming from that quarter, but actually adding little or nothing themselves - they are simply people who can hit ball well, even if they dont know why. 99% of all golf instruction literature and knowledge pre 2000s is either misleading, or at best, useless.

On the wrists, it is beyond argument that they contribute only very little to clubhead speed. That does come from the big muscles. The wrists are a hinge, and for many, are counterproductive when consciously manipulated. The wrists must control the clubhead for path, but must almost be switched off once the downswing starts, and get a free ride from there on. A powerful swing however will make the wrists feel as if they are moving with great speed, and thus powerful. But this is an illusion, the power is sourced from the legs, back and core. The understanding of the critical legs contribution was possibly the final part of the puzzle, as the movement is slight, and less obviously contributing to clubhead speed.

Focus on what Matters: The Muscles Used in a Golf Swing

Golf requires a unique set of muscles to perform at a high level. In this post, we dive into exactly what muscles are used in the golf swing

theleftrough.com

Work and Power Analysis of the Golf Swing - PMC

A work and power (energy) analysis of the golf swing is presented as a method for evaluating the mechanics of the golf swing. Two computer models were used to estimate the energy production, transfers, and conversions within the body and the golf ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[SocketRocket]

The are far from the main even. But a lot of misinformation on the golf swing is still about, since golf knowledge or lack of, was almost exclusively coming from professional golfers. Who in truth were just shooting in the dark, and other than a simplistic approach of copying what they guessed might be the way to do it, had little basis for teaching anything. A lot of those falsehoods are still widespread as a result.

Technology to measure what is truly going on in a golf swing, and the involvement of serious study by academics with a proper grounding in physics and biomechanics, have finally started to solve the riddle over the last 20 years. Some professionals are picking up on what is coming from that quarter, but actually adding little or nothing themselves - they are simply people who can hit ball well, even if they dont know why. 99% of all golf instruction literature and knowledge pre 2000s is either misleading, or at best, useless.

On the wrists, it is beyond argument that they contribute only very little to clubhead speed. That does come from the big muscles. The wrists are a hinge, and for many, are counterproductive when consciously manipulated. The wrists must control the clubhead for path, but must almost be switched off once the downswing starts, and get a free ride from there on. A powerful swing however will make the wrists feel as if they are moving with great speed, and thus powerful. But this is an illusion, the power is sourced from the legs, back and core. The understanding of the critical legs contribution was possibly the final part of the puzzle, as the movement is slight, and less obviously contributing to clubhead speed.

Focus on what Matters: The Muscles Used in a Golf Swing

Golf requires a unique set of muscles to perform at a high level. In this post, we dive into exactly what muscles are used in the golf swing

theleftrough.com

Work and Power Analysis of the Golf Swing - PMC

A work and power (energy) analysis of the golf swing is presented as a method for evaluating the mechanics of the golf swing. Two computer models were used to estimate the energy production, transfers, and conversions within the body and the golf ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Try hitting a ball without any wrist action and see what happens. Do it and let me know, one thing I know is it won't go very far. Speed comes from the pushing action of the trail arm and the release of the wrists. The body allows you to rotate so that they are able to swing freely and ads some core momentum but at low speed. Please dont mix the way a tour player swings to a handicap golfer, those people are extremely skilled in maximising the use of their bodies.

 

[SocketRocket]

Show us a video of him hitting a 300 yard drive with ‘just’ his arms and wrists.

This guy can do it:

 

[Backsticks]

This guy can do it:

Thats all hips and torso. Where are you getting your (mis)information ? Your own theories or any authoritative source ?

Just nobody has the strength in their wrists to create significant force on the club. The hands are reacted upon (with great force indeed) by that guys shoulder turn. To achieve that club speed, he certainly has fantastic decoupling of his wrists, so that they are slung unrestrained by rotation of his torso.

They era of guessing and everybody's theory being as good as anyone elses is past. There is no need now for speculative conjecture. It is known which muscles swing a clubhead. The Physics of Golf by Jorgensen is a good read, and set a path that has been well enhanced now by many others with technical biomechanics research. No just golf pros punting on an effectively amateur guess. The less the wrists actively do, the quicker the body can fling the club shaft.

 

[SocketRocket]

Thats all hips and torso. Where are you getting your (mis)information ? Your own theories or any authoritative source ?

Just nobody has the strength in their wrists to create significant force on the club. The hands are reacted upon (with great force indeed) by that guys shoulder turn. To achieve that club speed, he certainly has fantastic decoupling of his wrists, so that they are slung unrestrained by rotation of his torso.

They era of guessing and everybody's theory being as good as anyone elses is past. There is no need now for speculative conjecture. It is known which muscles swing a clubhead. The Physics of Golf by Jorgensen is a good read, and set a path that has been well enhanced now by many others with technical biomechanics research. No just golf pros punting on an effectively amateur guess. The less the wrists actively do, the quicker the body can fling the club shaft.

Maybe if you actually read my posts you would have an understanding of what I've said. I have not said the hands are the only speed generators, I've said the arms and hands are the main speed generators that are assisted by the body.

Club head speed is the main factor that applies force to the golf ball, the ball doesn't know what the hips are doing. Force = Mass x Acceleration

 

[bobmac]

Oh for goodness sake, how is this helping the OP?
It's a new week, please agree to disagree and move on.
Life's too short

 

[Backsticks]

Maybe if you actually read my posts you would have an understanding of what I've said. I have not said the hands are the only speed generators, I've said the arms and hands are the main speed generators that are assisted by the body.

Club head speed is the main factor that applies force to the golf ball, the ball doesn't know what the hips are doing. Force = Mass x Acceleration

Is thIs your own theory, or have you credible authorities backing up your statement ?

The arms and hands simply cannot develop the power to bring a clubhead to 100mph. You can state that they can - like one can state that the earth is flat. But continuing to promote such obsolete information is positively unhelpful to anyone teying to understand the golf swing.

 

[SocketRocket]

Is thIs your own theory, or have you credible authorities backing up your statement ?

The arms and hands simply cannot develop the power to bring a clubhead to 100mph. You can state that they can - like one can state that the earth is flat. But continuing to promote such obsolete information is positively unhelpful to anyone teying to understand the golf swing.

I repeat, you are either not reading my post or you can't understand the concept of an arms and hands led swing with a QUIET lower body.

 

[SocketRocket]

Oh for goodness sake, how is this helping the OP?
It's a new week, please agree to disagree and move on.
Life's too short

It's an ongoing discussion. I guess that's allowed, you are free to ignore it.