Two things the pros do....

pendodave

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If you want to see what pros actually do, as opposed to what it looks like they do, the Athletic Motion Golf youtube channel has a series on pros vs ams. In fact a lot of their output examines pro swing patterns, but isn't specifically labelled as such.

I do agree that watching pros live is a fascinating thing. And definitely worth trying to do. Strangely, watching them hit irons miles further than I do, I'm always impressed by their stillness at impact (except for the clubhead which moves very quickly).
 

Swango1980

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As I see it you create the lag then immediately start to release it. Holding onto it is a bad idea, & actually quite hard to do.
Having had numerous lessons, and trying to sort out my swing, I have come to the conclusion that any conscious thought or effort in holding lag in the downswing is an awful idea. The downswing happens so rapidly (especially if you want to hit it as long as possible), that any conscious effort to hold and then release lag is impossible. The speed of the swing should occur much more quickly than you can get your brain to focus on your lag between your arms and club shaft.

The lag is created by the fact that they start the swing with their lower body whilst their upper body resists that. So, as the players arms slow down just at that transition between backswing and downswing, the clubs momentum continues to move back, increasing the lag into the start of the downswing.

So, I feel that focusing on lag is an awful idea, and personally it killed the speed in my swing. Lag is more likely an output of the swing, rather than thinking of it as an input. Good sequencing is key, along with keeping the muscles and joints pretty relaxed. Easier said than done tough, the professionals also often have the flexibility and the ability to quickly power up their muscles into the downswing to whip the club towards the ball.

That is what I take from it anyway. Input or output though, they definitely do create that lovely lag into the ball. Garcia's lag is incredible.
 

bobmac

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I never said that golfers should try and create lag or try and maintain the lag in the downswing, but longer hitters tend to have more lag than shorter hitters.
Try and throw anything without hinging your wrist, it won't go very far.
 

Backsticks

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I never said that golfers should try and create lag or try and maintain the lag in the downswing, but longer hitters tend to have more lag than shorter hitters.
Try and throw anything without hinging your wrist, it won't go very far.

Thanks Einstein

I do think your two identified point are the key ones MIB4612.

But Orikoru's point isnt as trivial as it looks and is the real key. You are a bit harsh there.

You cannot create lag as such. Nor create the positions or timings of the open hips and the timing of the wrist cock simply in themselves. They are outcomes of muscle speed. If you have the twitch muscle speed, your two points follow. Which is why most golfer stabilise at a given level and swing speed. You cannot really improve at golf, in the sense of transforming your golf swing from mid level to scratch. You can improve your general performance by short game practice, experience, shot making decisions. But your long game is boxed into a range of about 5 shots which you really will not better, no matter the coaching, practice, or study of swing technique.
 

Voyager EMH

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Having had numerous lessons, and trying to sort out my swing, I have come to the conclusion that any conscious thought or effort in holding lag in the downswing is an awful idea. The downswing happens so rapidly (especially if you want to hit it as long as possible), that any conscious effort to hold and then release lag is impossible. The speed of the swing should occur much more quickly than you can get your brain to focus on your lag between your arms and club shaft.

The lag is created by the fact that they start the swing with their lower body whilst their upper body resists that. So, as the players arms slow down just at that transition between backswing and downswing, the clubs momentum continues to move back, increasing the lag into the start of the downswing.

So, I feel that focusing on lag is an awful idea, and personally it killed the speed in my swing. Lag is more likely an output of the swing, rather than thinking of it as an input. Good sequencing is key, along with keeping the muscles and joints pretty relaxed. Easier said than done tough, the professionals also often have the flexibility and the ability to quickly power up their muscles into the downswing to whip the club towards the ball.

That is what I take from it anyway. Input or output though, they definitely do create that lovely lag into the ball. Garcia's lag is incredible.

The emboldened bit is what a sprinting coach told me as a teenager.
"Avoid unnecessary tension build-up and your limbs will move much faster."
I found it fairly easy to incorporate this approach to my golf swing.
Speed and control can both be vastly improved for many if they work out how to effectively reduce tension in the arms.
For many of my poor shots I know straight away that I put in some unnecessary tension.
If anyone here doesn't understand what I'm going on about, try it with some chipping practice with varying amounts of tension in your arms and hands.
You might by surprised just how relaxed you can make your arms and make really good controlled shots.
 

Depreston

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The emboldened bit is what a sprinting coach told me as a teenager.
"Avoid unnecessary tension build-up and your limbs will move much faster."
I found it fairly easy to incorporate this approach to my golf swing.
Speed and control can both be vastly improved for many if they work out how to effectively reduce tension in the arms.
For many of my poor shots I know straight away that I put in some unnecessary tension.
If anyone here doesn't understand what I'm going on about, try it with some chipping practice with varying amounts of tension in your arms and hands.
You might by surprised just how relaxed you can make your arms and make really good controlled shots.

Yep but the problem is that tension feels like you have control and less tension feels like no control

The amateur golf swing is built on numerous misconceptions
 

Bobthesock

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Whilst they were some bombers at slaley hall I felt the overall standard was pretty poor really. I would love to hit it as far as them but I wouldn't swap my short game with that many of them.
 

sev112

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Jorgensen (i think) in the Physics of Golf showed that the other things pros did that amateurs didn’t which led to distance, was that their hips shifted towards the target at the start of the downswing (then followed by the in sequence other bits) creating an angular acceleration which noticeably increased club head speed over that if the hips did not shift towards target). He determined that from model tests and then did the equations.
his view was that amatuers should not attempt to replicate this as the timing required was difficult and unless you practised and were as skilled as pros, it wasn’t worth it.
Now golfers in the 2020s swing the club differently to the 80s and 90s, but I must admit I do seem to see more lateral hip shifts these days, especially on the Ladies’ Tour , but maybe it has always been there
 

Ethan

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If you want to see what pros actually do, as opposed to what it looks like they do, the Athletic Motion Golf youtube channel has a series on pros vs ams. In fact a lot of their output examines pro swing patterns, but isn't specifically labelled as such.

I do agree that watching pros live is a fascinating thing. And definitely worth trying to do. Strangely, watching them hit irons miles further than I do, I'm always impressed by their stillness at impact (except for the clubhead which moves very quickly).

AMG has some interesting stuff showing that while hand speed in the downswing is often similar for amateurs and pros, clubbed speed is very different, and the difference between the two is the position of the club relative to the hands. The ams are leasing the club much sooner than the pros.
 

Springveldt

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Jorgensen (i think) in the Physics of Golf showed that the other things pros did that amateurs didn’t which led to distance, was that their hips shifted towards the target at the start of the downswing (then followed by the in sequence other bits) creating an angular acceleration which noticeably increased club head speed over that if the hips did not shift towards target). He determined that from model tests and then did the equations.
his view was that amatuers should not attempt to replicate this as the timing required was difficult and unless you practised and were as skilled as pros, it wasn’t worth it.
Now golfers in the 2020s swing the club differently to the 80s and 90s, but I must admit I do seem to see more lateral hip shifts these days, especially on the Ladies’ Tour , but maybe it has always been there
AMG have a video on this and all the top pro's actually have that lateral bump before the backswing is completed, sometimes quite a bit before it completes. They call it "re-centering". Event their latest video talks about it.

 

bobmac

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AMG have a video on this and all the top pro's actually have that lateral bump before the backswing is completed, sometimes quite a bit before it completes.

I'm really really not a fan of this idea, especially among the less gifted of us. If left unsupervised, it can lead to all sorts of problems with direction and contact.
I prefer the opposite in fact, a slight separation between the backswing and downswing....like a child's swing changing direction.
 
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Tashyboy

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I know a lot of emphasis is on fitness of players etc. Which creates abilities in being more agile. But one of the fascinations for me is seeing players physical abilities similar to ”Beef”. They are not exactly honed to perfection, but have a swing and game that can be up there with the best.
 

Springveldt

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I'm really really not a fan of this idea, especially among the less gifted of us. If left unsupervised, it can lead to all sorts of problems with direction and contact.
I prefer the opposite in fact, a slight separation between the backswing and downswing....like a child's swing changing direction.
Oh totally agree. I tried it a while back but I just can't co-ordinate trying to shift towards the target while still swinging back. It felt like I was trying to pat my head and rub my stomach at the same time. Just felt totally unnatural to me.

Others with better co-ordination might find it easy though so was just posting what the top players do.
 

Swango1980

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I know a lot of emphasis is on fitness of players etc. Which creates abilities in being more agile. But one of the fascinations for me is seeing players physical abilities similar to ”Beef”. They are not exactly honed to perfection, but have a swing and game that can be up there with the best.
His beef hides his physical abilities, which will still be far superior (suited to the golf swing) than most club golfers. Look at John Daly. Big guy, but he has a rubber spine
 

Depreston

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Another thing is acceleration in the swing just looking at a few videos of mine and it’s pedestrian as anything looks so one paced backswing and downswing and follow through all look a similar speed really
 
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