Top 10 misunderstood rules!?

[Foxholer]

Back to the advice question. Now that we've established and referenced that advice is prohibited only during a stipulated round and that the round starts when you make your first stroke, I hope everyone is convinced that the two players in the OP's description were not in breach of 8-1 by discussing their club selection. On the same basis, if you are in a competition which does not allow the use of a distance measuring device, you could stand on the 1st tee before you play and use one to measure distances to anything on the first hole.
...

I'm happy to agree that this is indeed the rule is/ruling would be. And that it's the only practical approach to take.

However, it just does not sit well wirh me! Likewise, the ability to use a DMD on the first hole in a comp that forbids them may be legal, but seems totally wrong! It's not cheating, but seems very close!

 

[ManinBlack]

I'm happy to agree that this is indeed the rule is/ruling would be. And that it's the only practical approach to take.

However, it just does not sit well wirh me! Likewise, the ability to use a DMD on the first hole in a comp that forbids them may be legal, but seems totally wrong! It's not cheating, but seems very close!

I have e mailed the R & A with the question. I think it's against the rules. I'll post the R & A's answer when I get it. I've done this before they're very helpful.

 

[duncan mackie]

I have e mailed the R & A with the question. I think it's against the rules. I'll post the R & A's answer when I get it. I've done this before they're very helpful.

Still not sure what your actual question is.

If you accept that there has to be a recognisable point at which discussion, even coaching and professional advice, has to cease then the issue is extremely simple because that point is designated in the rules and has already been referenced.

It's also extremely logical, and consistent with the allowance of professional strategy planners and course planners which are permitted to be used as long as they aren't updated after this point - which is also the answer to the DMD element raised by foxhole - before you start any measurement is a matter of fact (with certain specific exceptions that are more to do with the cross over to practicing).

So, back to your question and the implications - at what point do you believe you can no longer discuss which club to hit at the par 3 17th hole in you up coming round, with your professional coach?
1. Last Wednesday evening?
2. 48 hrs before your tee time?
3. Your tee time? (And time would this change if this was deferred, delayed....)
4. The point you start your designated round as defined in the rules?

 

[Colin L]

I have e mailed the R & A with the question. I think it's against the rules. I'll post the R & A's answer when I get it. I've done this before they're very helpful.

Disappointing that you don't have confidence in the qualified members of the forum.

As far as using a DMD before the stipulated round is concerned you can save your own and the R&A's time. Here is the 1st question and answer from the R&A's prize draw Open Quiz
https://www.theopen.com/OpenQuiz


1. Jin and Danny are due to tee off at 9:00 a.m. At 8:58 a.m. before they tee off, Danny uses his distance measuring device to measure the distance to the first bunker. What is the ruling?

A. There is no penalty.
B. Danny is penalised two strokes.
C. Danny is disqualified.

Your answer (A) was correct.

The stipulated round has not begun and therefore the DMD may be used.

I hope you will also see from this that you'll get the same answer regarding the asking for and giving of advice - it is permissible prior to the beginning of the stipulated round.

 

[Colin L]

I'm happy to agree that this is indeed the rule is/ruling would be. And that it's the only practical approach to take.

However, it just does not sit well wirh me! Likewise, the ability to use a DMD on the first hole in a comp that forbids them may be legal, but seems totally wrong! It's not cheating, but seems very close!

If I measure the distance to a ditch on the first hole and discuss with my friend who is also going to compete whether to try to clear it or play safe and lay up, are you seeing a difference between my doing so immediately before our round starts and doing so a couple of hours before, the day before.....?

 

[williamalex1]

We had a team comp on Sunday and the group in front were held up and we waited for them to tee off. One of their group teed off at least 2 feet in front of the tee markers, as they prepared to leave the tee I mentioned to him that he ought to be careful as he'll be pulled and penalised in a proper comp. - he looked at me as if I was a Martian

Maybe it was his 2nd shot :smirk:

 

[Sweep]

So on the subject of advice...
Player A tees off first, makes his first stroke of his round on hole 1. It’s a corker, goes straight down the middle and stops just short of the fairway bunkers leaving him in prime position.
Before taking his first shot of the round, Player B asks Player A what club he used. Player A says it was a 5 iron.
Do I understand correctly that Player A is in breach of Rule 8.1 for giving advice during his round but there is no penalty for Player B for asking for advice as he did so prior to his round commencing?

 

[chrisd]

Maybe it was his 2nd shot :smirk:

It definitely wasn't. 😁

 

[Kellfire]

Decision 3/3 confirms that in strokeplay "a competitor has begun his stipulated round when he makes his first stroke in that round". So up till he makes the first stroke, he can do pretty much as he pleases (unless it is expressly forbidden by the rules, that is - eg practice on the course as an example).

Does in my mind though make it a bit bizarre regarding "advice" about how to make that first stroke.

Thank you - for some reason I was convinced it would be in the main body of the rules!

 

[backwoodsman]

So on the subject of advice...
Player A tees off first, makes his first stroke of his round on hole 1. It’s a corker, goes straight down the middle and stops just short of the fairway bunkers leaving him in prime position.
Before taking his first shot of the round, Player B asks Player A what club he used. Player A says it was a 5 iron.
Do I understand correctly that Player A is in breach of Rule 8.1 for giving advice during his round but there is no penalty for Player B for asking for advice as he did so prior to his round commencing?

Not sure of this, so hope one of the experts with either confirm it - or provide the correct answer. But l think both players are in breach of the advice rule (but certainly A will be).

My rationale ...
Players are assigned into groups with a specific starting time. I think the stipulated round for each player in a group starts when the first player of the group makes the first stroke - and ends when the last player makes his final stroke. But can't find any "proof" either in rules or decisions to confirm it.

If not, you can have the scenario you describe or indeed the converse of Player A putting out on final green (hence completed his stipulated round), and then telling player B something like " your line is 6 inches left of the hole" - with no penalty to either player.

That's my thought anyway.

(And l know that does not sit easy with decision 3/3 that l mentioned earlier)

 

[backwoodsman]

Not sure of this, so hope one of the experts with either confirm it - or provide the correct answer. But l think both players are in breach of the advice rule (but certainly A will be).

My rationale ...
Players are assigned into groups with a specific starting time. I think the stipulated round for each player in a group starts when the first player of the group makes the first stroke - and ends when the last player makes his final stroke. But can't find any "proof" either in rules or decisions to confirm it.

If not, you can have the scenario you describe or indeed the converse of Player A putting out on final green (hence completed his stipulated round), and then telling player B something like " your line is 6 inches left of the hole" - with no penalty to either player.

That's my thought anyway.

(And l know that does not sit easy with decision 3/3 that l mentioned earlier)

And on second thoughts..

B not in breach for asking, but A in breach if he does answer. Ie B can ask but A should say "sorry, but l can't answer; it would be advice".

And on a third hand - help!! Where are the experts when you need them ...

 

[rulefan]

A stipulated round applies to the individual player not to groups.

 

[sjn]

I'm thinking of printing up a document for all members, perhaps explaining the top 10 most misunderstood rules, with the correct use of them.

I was also thinking of adding something on the back about improving your experience around the course, which would include things like etiquette and slow play, and what to do.

Get the whole thing laminated and handed out to all the members.

Has anyone done anything similar before? They can keep these in their bag for quick use rather than having to go through the book or app for rules (which can be a little time consuming)

So, what would you all say the Top 10 misunderstood rules are?

Provisional (declaring
Dropping a ball
Nearest Point of Relief

My mind has gone a bit blank now!!!

Anyway, any advice or help you can give me would be great.

Cheers

The R&A already produce a useful 'plain English' leaflet called 'A quick guide to the rules of golf' which folds up to the size of scorecard so can be kept in a scorecard holder . it focuses on the on commonly encountered rules situations and includes useful diagrams on the correct place to drop from different types of water hazard , unplayable lies, or from road /GUR . The correct procedure for dropping I think is the most misunderstood rule.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Saying ball is lost in a water hazard without absolute proof.

 

[rulefan]

Saying ball is lost in a water hazard without absolute proof.

without virtual certainty.

 

[TheJezster]

The R&A already produce a useful 'plain English' leaflet called 'A quick guide to the rules of golf' which folds up to the size of scorecard so can be kept in a scorecard holder . it focuses on the on commonly encountered rules situations and includes useful diagrams on the correct place to drop from different types of water hazard , unplayable lies, or from road /GUR . The correct procedure for dropping I think is the most misunderstood rule.

Oh, do they?

Where would I find this?

 

[duncan mackie]

Oh, do they?

Where would I find this?

You get them from the R&A and can order on their website. You pay a fixed postage fee for any number of copiesß.
However, I would be very surprised if they haven't been discontinued ahead of the new versions that will be available to reflect the new rules.
We got 2000 a few years ago and posted them out with membership renewals as well as having supplies in the lounge and pro shop.

 

[ManinBlack]

Reply from R & A re. advice

"Dear Bill,

Thank you for your email regarding a query on the Rules of Golf.

In answer to your question, as the stipulated round has not started, players discussing what club to use before hitting their shots on the first tee would not be a breach of the Rules (Rule 8-1). The key point here is the fact the round has not started. If this was to occur on the second tee for example then the players would be in breach of the Rules.

I hope this information is of some assistance, however, if you have any further questions regarding this matter, please let me know.

Kind regards,

Conor Finlay
Rules Assistant
The R&A, St Andrews, Fife, Scotland, KY16 9JD"

Makes sense but doesn't seem right, somehow.

 

[Colin L]

Glad you got confirmation of what had already been explained. And, as said above, it applies to the use of a DMD in a competition in which they are not allowed.

 

[Sweep]

And on second thoughts..

B not in breach for asking, but A in breach if he does answer. Ie B can ask but A should say "sorry, but l can't answer; it would be advice".

And on a third hand - help!! Where are the experts when you need them ...

If my analogy is correct then is it possible for player B to claim the first hole if they were playing match play?