The next PM.

[Hobbit]

Yup - that's where we are...

The pity is that so many Johnson supporters just hear the words - especially around No Deal - and think it is all just going to be OK because Johnson says so - when Johnson by his own utterances doesn't himself really seem to have a full grip of some of the basics.

That I might not understand the detail of such as Article 24 opens me up to criticism - and I accept that. I am not one of the many business, commerce, trade and negotiation experts on here who level such accusations at me - and I admit to my ignorance in many such matters - I am just one of joe public who has tried to understand by reading and listening. But if I am ignorant in respect of WTO GATT Art24 then so, as you suggest, are the vast majority of the electorate - but were I to suggest such an ignorance of supporters of No Deal I would be accused of calling Leave voters stupid - when as we all know there is a very big difference between stupidity and ignorance.

The truth of it - in my opinion - is that when we voted the vast majority of the electorate were completely ignorant of WTO GATT Article 24 and it's implications in respect of leaving without a deal - No Deal not actually being on the table at that time and only appearing as a Dave Davies negotiating strategy post vote.

But there you go. Roll on a No Deal withdrawal with Johnson as PM.

How do you know that "so many Johnson supporters just hear the words...?" I'm intrigued to know where you get this insight from?

Don't get me wrong, I detest Johnson and feel the UK is about to end up with a Trump-lite leader but I am curious as to where your tea leaf reading skills come from.

 

[MegaSteve]

The brexit supporting clientele of 'spoons, in Uxbridge, don't have a particularly high opinion of Boris... In fact, if you said something positive of him you'd do well to get out unscathed...

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

How do you know that "so many Johnson supporters just hear the words...?" I'm intrigued to know where you get this insight from?

Don't get me wrong, I detest Johnson and feel the UK is about to end up with a Trump-lite leader but I am curious as to where your tea leaf reading skills come from.

I don't know that at all. But if you are suggesting that most Johnson supporters may well understand more about WTO GATT Article 24 than Johnson does then OK; but I suspect that they don't. I for one did not understand ANYTHING about Article 24 when I voted (and I might suggest that I was not alone in that ignorance) and have only read and tried to understand Article 24 in full since you suggested that there is flexibility in there that I was ignorant of - perhaps that flexibility is in paragraph 10.

TBH I'd have thought that we would have heard more about para 10 as it is quite an easy riposte to criticisms of Art 24 para 5b being a straightforward interim solution to WTO default tariffs if leaving with no Deal and trading under the auspices of the WTO. UK and EU just need 2/3rds of WTO member countries on board and all will be OK.

 

[Hobbit]

I don't know that at all. But if you are suggesting that most Johnson supporters may well understand more about WTO GATT Article 24 than Johnson does then OK. But I suspect that they don't, as I for one did not understand ANYTHING about Article 24 when I voted (and I might suggest that I was not alone in that ignorance) and have only read Article 24 since you suggested that there is flexibility in there - perhaps in paragraph 10.

I'm not suggesting anything at all, its you that said, not intimated, that "so many just hear the words...?" You spent a significant amount of time attacking Brexit supporters, as well as Brexit itself, and now you're attacking Johnson's supporters.

Telling us why Johnson is the wrong choice, I will almost certainly agree with pretty much everything you say. Attack those that support him, no that is simply wrong. When are you going to trot out the Leavers/Johnson supporters are thick and uneducated, because that's the next logical step with your summation?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I will not - as I hope I have not.

But I might suggest that in respect of trading under the auspices of WTO GATT Article 24 following a No Deal withdrawal, the vast majority of the electorate, and that electorate will include all Leave voters - were as ignorant as I was about Article 24 and leaving without a deal when we voted. That I have now read and tried to understand Article 24 and it's associated clarifications does not make me clever - it simply makes me more informed than I was.

 

[SocketRocket]

I will not - as I hope I have not.

But I might suggest that in respect of trading under the auspices of WTO GATT Article 24 following a No Deal withdrawal, the vast majority of the electorate, and that electorate will include all Leave voters - were as ignorant as I was about Article 24 and leaving without a deal when we voted. That I have now read and tried to understand Article 24 and it's associated clarifications does not make me clever - it simply makes me more informed than I was.

Why dont you just accept that you have an opinion on Brexit and others have theirs, absoutely nothing you post here will make any difference to these views. So, who are you trying to convince by this continuing out rush of condemnation? I have the tag by some on here of being the arch Leaver, the fanatical 'No Deal' enthusiast; maybe they are correct on their accusations, maybe not but I dont continually post diatribes of anti-remain dogma trying to prove their views wrong, I may counter a post that suggests leaving is wrong or leavers are stupid to hold their view but I dont waste time trying to castigate remaining.

You are an Intelligent man, why can't you see that all you are doing is trying to convince yourself of something you seem to be convinced of. By all means challenge if you think you have been wrongly accused but otherwise give yourself and everyone else a break.

 

[SocketRocket]

he'll be revered by half the country and loathed by the other half, no matter the after effects

LIke just about every other PM in history.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Why dont you just accept that you have an opinion on Brexit and others have theirs, absoutely nothing you post here will make any difference to these views. So, who are you trying to convince by this continuing out rush of condemnation? I have the tag by some on here of being the arch Leaver, the fanatical 'No Deal' enthusiast; maybe they are correct on their accusations, maybe not but I dont continually post diatribes of anti-remain dogma trying to prove their views wrong, I may counter a post that suggests leaving is wrong or leavers are stupid to hold their view but I dont waste time trying to castigate remaining.

You are an Intelligent man, why can't you see that all you are doing is trying to convince yourself of something you seem to be convinced of. By all means challenge if you think you have been wrongly accused but otherwise give yourself and everyone else a break.

I am simply baffled by the guy and his attraction - I just do not get his 'have faith' shtick. And so when he displays such ignorance as he did about Article 24 and yet still it does not matter - I frankly despair that he will be our PM - but in desperation there is always hope...

 

[SocketRocket]

I am simply baffled by the guy and his attraction - I just do not get his 'have faith' shtick. And so when he displays such ignorance as he did about Article 24 and yet still it does not matter - I frankly despair that he will be our PM - but in desperation there is always hope...

I watched the Andrew Neil interview and it just seemed Neil played a silly game to catch him out. However what is the point of keeping on about him, I think Corbyn is a Twazzer but I dont spend my spare time trying to find editorials to put him down, people can make their own minds up, I will of course make my opinion known if it's part part of a debate though

 

[Hobbit]

I am simply baffled by the guy and his attraction - I just do not get his 'have faith' shtick. And so when he displays such ignorance as he did about Article 24 and yet still it does not matter - I frankly despair that he will be our PM - but in desperation there is always hope...

I don't think its a "have faith" thing. Have a think about what Trump/Farage/Corbyn offer. They offer, and offered, what the people wanted, and promise to deliver it. The Tories, or at times the majority of them have always had an issue with EU membership. And it is the Tory membership that will vote on their leader. Why wouldn't they vote for a tub thumper who loudly promises to deliver?

As for not knowing the detail of WTO Gatt 24; why should he need to know? The MD's I've worked directly for have known very little of the detail but as strategists they have been spot on. Top table creates strategy and policy and drives others to find the detail to deliver it.

Boris will have been briefed on WTO, and maybe Gatt 24 but he won't remember the detail, or not all of it. His question to his advisors was probably along the lines of will WTO provide avenues to deliver a No Deal Brexit. Someone may have said yes, and he's now saying WTO will allow the UK an avenue to deliver a No Deal Brexit.

As for the leadership election, just like the Brexit referendum, most will have long since made their mind up. A few on the fringe, either way, might change their mind but it won't change the result without something monumental happening.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I don't think its a "have faith" thing. Have a think about what Trump/Farage/Corbyn offer. They offer, and offered, what the people wanted, and promise to deliver it. The Tories, or at times the majority of them have always had an issue with EU membership. And it is the Tory membership that will vote on their leader. Why wouldn't they vote for a tub thumper who loudly promises to deliver?

As for not knowing the detail of WTO Gatt 24; why should he need to know? The MD's I've worked directly for have known very little of the detail but as strategists they have been spot on. Top table creates strategy and policy and drives others to find the detail to deliver it.

Boris will have been briefed on WTO, and maybe Gatt 24 but he won't remember the detail, or not all of it. His question to his advisors was probably along the lines of will WTO provide avenues to deliver a No Deal Brexit. Someone may have said yes, and he's now saying WTO will allow the UK an avenue to deliver a No Deal Brexit.

As for the leadership election, just like the Brexit referendum, most will have long since made their mind up. A few on the fringe, either way, might change their mind but it won't change the result without something monumental happening.

I have met some CEOs in my time also - and one - the CEO of a global defence and aerospace company - blew his top with his team when he was caught out by an obvious question from his most important customer. It was a question that his team should have told him would be coming and that he should be prepared for - and for which he should have had the answer. Johnson would have known he would be asked about free trade arrangements with the EU following a No Deal - it is possibly the most crucial economic risk mitigations and he should have been prepared. Para 5c of Art24 is not that difficult to grasp and learn - almost by heart - and is absolutely crucial to his argument. I suspect his team did try and prep him but for whatever reason it did not get stuck between the ears - and it really was not difficult. It was clear he didn't know about 5c. Fail.

But I agree. To the majority of Tory Members none of that makes any difference as he has promised to get UK out of EU by 31/10 - do or die...(though I wonder about what he means by the 'die' bit of that...as seemingly it isn't his resignation)

 

[Hobbit]

I have met some CEOs in my time also - and one - the CEO of a global defence and aerospace company - blew his top with his team when he was caught out by an obvious question from his most important customer. It was a question that his team should have told him would be coming and that he should be prepared for - and for which he should have had the answer. Johnson would have known he would be asked about free trade arrangements with the EU following a No Deal. He should have been prepared. Para 5c of Art24 is not that difficult to grasp and is absolutely crucial to his argument. I suspect his team did try and prep him but for whatever reason it did not get stuck between the ears - and it really was not difficult. It was clear he didn't know about 5c. Fail.

In your opinion.

We're looking at a small part of the overall detail that Boris needs to be prepped on. He's running for PM, and is questioned about everything in the news from around the world on an almost hourly basis. Add to that all the UK detail, EU Brexit detail, leadership/opposition detail. Inter party relationships(DUP), future cabinets, an article he wrote xx years ago...

Expecting him to know WTO Gatt 24 down to paragraph level is absurd. Equally, I don't think he's the most adept at thinking on his feet, and as we know occasionally engages mouth before brain.

 

[gmc40]

The Tapas can’t have been that tasty!

 

[SocketRocket]

I have met some CEOs in my time also - and one - the CEO of a global defence and aerospace company - blew his top with his team when he was caught out by an obvious question from his most important customer. It was a question that his team should have told him would be coming and that he should be prepared for - and for which he should have had the answer. Johnson would have known he would be asked about free trade arrangements with the EU following a No Deal - it is possibly the most crucial economic risk mitigations and he should have been prepared. Para 5c of Art24 is not that difficult to grasp and learn - almost by heart - and is absolutely crucial to his argument. I suspect his team did try and prep him but for whatever reason it did not get stuck between the ears - and it really was not difficult. It was clear he didn't know about 5c. Fail.

But I agree. To the majority of Tory Members none of that makes any difference as he has promised to get UK out of EU by 31/10 - do or die...(though I wonder about what he means by the 'die' bit of that...as seemingly it isn't his resignation)

When a CEO is in discussion/negotiation with a customer he will normally have his technical advisors with him to explain or answer questions on detail. I have done this myself, it would be commercial suicide to face it up on your own. We have both worked for an Aerospace Defence Contractor and understand how much detailed information there is in their systems and how no-one is capable of understanding and quoting it all.

 

[jp5]

I watched the Andrew Neil interview and it just seemed Neil played a silly game to catch him out.

By asking Boris if he knew the detail of the mechanism that Boris thinks is the way forward?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

By asking Boris if he knew the detail of the mechanism that Boris thinks is the way forward?

...and it is not difficult detail. It is absolutely basic knowledge. He knows of para 5b; he clearly thought that that was that. There are three short paragraphs 5a to 5c - and they take 5 minutes to read. They are not that difficult to understand. The absolutely critical constraints around what Johnson proposes are set out in para 5c - there has to be a basic agreement of the future deal and a plan for getting from now to then. And para 10 is also very short and dead easy to understand. The complexity where there is complexity is in the clarifications around questions that are raised.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

I am simply baffled by the guy and his attraction - I just do not get his 'have faith' shtick. And so when he displays such ignorance as he did about Article 24 and yet still it does not matter - I frankly despair that he will be our PM - but in desperation there is always hope...

Voters like the odious Tory member who laughed and said we should all support Johnson as he is the only leader with any optimism.
I am optimistic that Hearts will win the SPFL this year so, using his judgement, you should all support me in my optimism.

 

[Crazyface]

I watched the A. Neil interviews last night, well most of it. What a waste of time that was. all he tried to do was trip them up. Useless! Boris won, but only on pure passion. The other bloke is such a smarmy slimeball with evil dead snake eyes.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I watched the A. Neil interviews last night, well most of it. What a waste of time that was. all he tried to do was trip them up. Useless! Boris won, but only on pure passion. The other bloke is such a smarmy slimeball with evil dead snake eyes.

Tripping up or asking pretty basic questions around what they are proposing. Whatever it was - good practice for BJ for when he is in with the EU negotiators - he only really fell over the once.

 

[MegaSteve]

I watched the A. Neil interviews last night, well most of it. What a waste of time that was. all he tried to do was trip them up. Useless! Boris won, but only on pure passion. The other bloke is such a smarmy slimeball with evil dead snake eyes.

I've heard he speaks highly of your good self ...

When he hits on the EU supporting lady... He is everybody's hero... Including mine ...
Dare trip up the 'lovable' Boris and all of a sudden he [Neil] morphs into a bad boy ...