The next PM.

[drdel]

In London, 2/3rds of knife crime is carried out by blacks. In the rest of the Uk, 62% of knife crime is carried out by whites. There's a whole host of stats surrounding the issue, but the most reliable is on the Gov's own website.

I think before jumping on SR its wise to consider objectively the propensity to commit a knife offence ( if you believe 'carrying' is a predictor). Begs the question what percent of the 3 population groups of under 25 years old (about 22%, 15mill), about 82% of UK population are 'white' approx. 12mill so non-white and not stated will be about 3million.

So just for arguments sake; using the data you provided - say 1600 out of 12mill, and say 1500 out of 3mill. meaning the probability for carrying a knife is 0.013% and 0.05% !!

White has a decreased rate; among the two other classifications is increasing.

 

[Hobbit]

I think before jumping on SR its wise to consider objectively the propensity to commit a knife offence ( if you believe 'carrying' is a predictor). Begs the question what percent of the 3 population groups of under 25 years old (about 22%, 15mill), about 82% of UK population are 'white' approx. 12mill so non-white and not stated will be about 3million.

So just for arguments sake; using the data you provided - say 1600 out of 12mill, and say 1500 out of 3mill. meaning the probability for carrying a knife is 0.013% and 0.05% !!

White has a decreased rate; among the two other classifications is increasing.

There’s an article on the Beeb news page from March with 10 different graphs looking at the issue from many different directions.

One thing is clear. Poverty is the driver. How many rich kids, irrespective of colour, are involved in knife crime?

5th richest country in the world, but the distribution of that wealth is skewed.

 

[drdel]

There’s an article on the Beeb news page from March with 10 different graphs looking at the issue from many different directions.

One thing is clear. Poverty is the driver. How many rich kids, irrespective of colour, are involved in knife crime?

5th richest country in the world, but the distribution of that wealth is skewed.

Yup tis a complex issue. Unfortunately its one where sensitivities can get in the way of the truth being discussed. There is an argument about the imbalance of wealth but that is not totally ethnically delineated - there's also the fact that in some countries the 'value of human' life is somewhat less (for all sorts of reasons) than in western countries so the 'moral' base is different. Until we face up to the underlying issues of multiculturalism we'll always be playing catchup.

 

[Hobbit]

Yup tis a complex issue. Unfortunately its one where sensitivities can get in the way of the truth being discussed. There is an argument about the imbalance of wealth but that is not totally ethnically delineated - there's also the fact that in some countries the 'value of human' life is somewhat less (for all sorts of reasons) than in western countries so the 'moral' base is different. Until we face up to the underlying issues of multiculturalism we'll always be playing catchup.

What is multiculturalism? Many cultures fear it, whatever it is, thinking it is the dilution of their culture. Some people don't want it, being happy with their lot - I don't think there's anything wrong with choice, and choosing not to if that's what someone wants.

All people need to do is respect each other's culture.... going well off track now...

 

[SocketRocket]

What is multiculturalism? Many cultures fear it, whatever it is, thinking it is the dilution of their culture. Some people don't want it, being happy with their lot - I don't think there's anything wrong with choice, and choosing not to if that's what someone wants.

All people need to do is respect each other's culture.... going well off track now...

To me multicultureism is encouraging people to live in different cultures and communities. This IMO discourages people of different ethnicities to integrate. There is nothing wrong with people having their own customs, religion etc but it's not healthy when they want to live in separate communities and do not apply the freedoms and values of their adopting country.

Regarding serious knife crime and by this I dont mean carrying a knife but using it against someone, its difficult to look through data to support ones concerns but just about every time I see a murder on the news it appears to be perpetrated by a black person. I am not convinced that these people have no choice in their lifestyles either, many many people are born into families with low incomes but do not turn to crime as a way to earn a living.

 

[Wolf]

To me multicultureism is encouraging people to live in different cultures and communities. This IMO discourages people of different ethnicities to integrate. There is nothing wrong with people having their own customs, religion etc but it's not healthy when they want to live in separate communities and do not apply the freedoms and values of their adopting country.

Regarding serious knife crime and by this I dont mean carrying a knife but using it against someone, its difficult to look through data to support ones concerns but just about every time I see a murder on the news it appears to be perpetrated by a black person. I am not convinced that these people have no choice in their lifestyles either, many many people are born into families with low incomes but do not turn to crime as a way to earn a living.

I generally stay out of political threads but a lot of what you say here seems so contradictory. Unless I'm misreading it so feel free to correct me or elaborate to make it more understandable.

Your opinion of multiculturalism is where its encouraged to live in communities with different cultures, yet the next sentence you state that discourages people.. That in itself makes little sense unless by encouraged you mean forced therefore people are effectively discouraged through lack of choice. Yet that can't be as everyone has choice in where they live to a certain extent and if they choose not to integrate based on race, religion or other factors who are we to comment on their choices as long as its done respectfully.

Also your point about their adopted country. Just because someone is a different culture, race or religion doesn't mean this their adoptive country, You are aware a lot in fact the majority were born here. So again are you actually meaning to refer to immigrants that don't just do as we do, if so have you yourself ever experienced what it's like to be moved from your comfort of your own religion, surroundings and I don't mean living in another western country, I mean something the polar opposite e.g a country where you don't have the freedoms here or different cultures, you can't just arrive somewhere new and expect immediate integration especially if people are so versed in their own ways, integration for some migrants could take a whole generation. Plus when you think about as a nation are Brits any better, go on any holiday nobody tries to speak the language instead we expect them to speak English and if they don't do we try to speak theirs generally not most just shout louder and slower expecting them to understand.

As for the knife crime part you're clearly not looking through the data but in fact disregarding it completely, you say all the murders you see are by black people yet the figures showed higher percentage of knife crime is committed by white people, proven by something posted here alone in this thread. Most of the news articles on TV however focus on London where the ethnic levels are higher so of course that's disproportionate to the country as a whole, so if your watching the news yes you may see more black crime but when only one area is a focus that's what you'll see.

Maybe I'm missing what your trying to say, but the little I've read there seems to be a lot of finger pointing at "non UK white folk" as I say maybe I'm missing your points but I'm not sure I am.

 

[Fade and Die]

I generally stay out of political threads but a lot of what you say here seems so contradictory. Unless I'm misreading it so feel free to correct me or elaborate to make it more understandable.

Your opinion of multiculturalism is where its encouraged to live in communities with different cultures, yet the next sentence you state that discourages people.. That in itself makes little sense unless by encouraged you mean forced therefore people are effectively discouraged through lack of choice. Yet that can't be as everyone has choice in where they live to a certain extent and if they choose not to integrate based on race, religion or other factors who are we to comment on their choices as long as its done respectfully.

Also your point about their adopted country. Just because someone is a different culture, race or religion doesn't mean this their adoptive country, You are aware a lot in fact the majority were born here. So again are you actually meaning to refer to immigrants that don't just do as we do, if so have you yourself ever experienced what it's like to be moved from your comfort of your own religion, surroundings and I don't mean living in another western country, I mean something the polar opposite e.g a country where you don't have the freedoms here or different cultures, you can't just arrive somewhere new and expect immediate integration especially if people are so versed in their own ways, integration for some migrants could take a whole generation. Plus when you think about as a nation are Brits any better, go on any holiday nobody tries to speak the language instead we expect them to speak English and if they don't do we try to speak theirs generally not most just shout louder and slower expecting them to understand.

As for the knife crime part you're clearly not looking through the data but in fact disregarding it completely, you say all the murders you see are by black people yet the figures showed higher percentage of knife crime is committed by white people, proven by something posted here alone in this thread. Most of the news articles on TV however focus on London where the ethnic levels are higher so of course that's disproportionate to the country as a whole, so if your watching the news yes you may see more black crime but when only one area is a focus that's what you'll see.

Maybe I'm missing what your trying to say, but the little I've read there seems to be a lot of finger pointing at "non UK white folk" as I say maybe I'm missing your points but I'm not sure I am.

Have a good read of this article, especially the bit about statistics....

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_crime_in_the_United_Kingdom

Best bit though is the line "the black community (...) need to be mobilised in denunciation of this gang culture that is killing innocent young black kids. But we won't stop this by pretending it isn't young black kids doing it."

 

[Wolf]

Have a good read of this article, especially the bit about statistics....

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_crime_in_the_United_Kingdom

Best bit though is the line "the black community (...) need to be mobilised in denunciation of this gang culture that is killing innocent young black kids. But we won't stop this by pretending it isn't young black kids doing it."

Nobody is pretending young black kids aren't doing it I never said they weren't, especially in the urban areas of London but I explained that reasoning. Merely pointing out not to pigeon hole as its rife across the UK amongst all races.

Also the stats shown in the Wikipedia link are from 2009/2010 hardly upto date enough to make an accurate judgment on. Unless that is your point also that if you look in right places you'll always find stats to support whichever side you choose.

 

[Fade and Die]

Nobody is pretending young black kids aren't doing it I never said they weren't, especially in the urban areas of London but I explained that reasoning. Merely pointing out not to pigeon hole as its rife across the UK amongst all races.

Also the stats shown in the Wikipedia link are from 2009/2010 hardly upto date enough to make an accurate judgment on. Unless that is your point also that if you look in right places you'll always find stats to support whichever side you choose.

Don’t disagree with you re stats but to point out they are a few years old is just splitting hairs, do you think since 2010 things have improved for the black community or do you think they will still be over represented in the stop and search, arrests and prison population column?
SR seemed to be taking a lot of flak for stating a very obvious fact that knife crime is a predominantly black issue... I agree with him 100%. Yes my view is based on where I live...the south east were most weekends there are 2 or 3 stories of stabbings and they are almost without fail within the black community.

I disagree with SR re policing though, I lay the whole blame at Teresa Mays feet, her cuts virtually wiped out Community Policing, an absolutely vital tool in breaking down the barriers on estates and typically very “anti police” districts. 15 years ago you would see a couple of PCSO’s walking through the estates maybe three times a day, often black or Asian Officers stopping and chatting with the groups of lads hanging around the bottom of staircases, getting to know them, breaking down barriers. Now the only interaction with Police on the estates is if a squad car drives through once a week, or there is a raid on a flat, it creates more barriers and more distrust.

Another quote from the article...In 2003 Lee Jasper, a race advisor to the London mayor, said drugs and gun crime were the "biggest threat to the black community since its arrival here".
Yes the statement is 16 years old but it’s more relevant today than ever.

 

[Wolf]

Don’t disagree with you re stats but to point out they are a few years old is just splitting hairs, do you think since 2010 things have improved for the black community or do you think they will still be over represented in the stop and search, arrests and prison population column?
SR seemed to be taking a lot of flak for stating a very obvious fact that knife crime is a predominantly black issue... I agree with him 100%. Yes my view is based on where I live...the south east were most weekends there are 2 or 3 stories of stabbings and they are almost without fail within the black community.

I disagree with SR re policing though, I lay the whole blame at Teresa Mays feet, her cuts virtually wiped out Community Policing, an absolutely vital tool in breaking down the barriers on estates and typically very “anti police” districts. 15 years ago you would see a couple of PCSO’s walking through the estates maybe three times a day, often black or Asian Officers stopping and chatting with the groups of lads hanging around the bottom of staircases, getting to know them, breaking down barriers. Now the only interaction with Police on the estates is if a squad car drives through once a week, or there is a raid on a flat, it creates more barriers and more distrust.

Another quote from the article...In 2003 Lee Jasper, a race advisor to the London mayor, said drugs and gun crime were the "biggest threat to the black community since its arrival here".
Yes the statement is 16 years old but it’s more relevant today than ever.

I'm not actually disagreeing with you. I don't think it is splitting hairs when the data quoted is nearly a decade old. I've also said regarding London there will be a higher rate of ethnic crime especially when it's knife crime.. I'm from the South East as well and a rather not nice part yet there the crime was predominantly young white males. Though your area is obviously different and has effect on your feelings and judgement towards it which is fully understandable. Yet nationwide stats show as a whole its an issue for all races not just black people, that was my point with SR post, he's taking regional ethnic issues and applying to the whole of the UK and that's where the numbers differ.

My issue with SR posts wasn't just at the race crime, its the whole immigration thing assuming people don't integrate based on race or culture because they are not from here yet most of these people are. That's why I even said if I'm missing something to him feel free to correct me. I stand by my points I said in response to him.

But perhaps this topic is for another thread rather than about the next PM as its a little off piste

 

[Tashyboy]

Reading a lot of the last couple of pages,it seems everybody is saying differant things but predominantly the same thing. As much as we can talk about the break down in community values. For me it is nothing to the breakdown in political values. We have the worst government in history ( for quite some time). Equally we have the worst opposition in History. crime is rife, as is unsolved crime. As stated we have the 5th richest economy in the world, yet we have food banks. Multi billion company's pay sod all tax. Until both Labour and the Torys get a massive kick up the Arse at the general election, nothing will change and the Brexit Party, SNP, greens etc will for better or worse start the changes.

 

[Hobbit]

I'm not actually disagreeing with you. I don't think it is splitting hairs when the data quoted is nearly a decade old. I've also said regarding London there will be a higher rate of ethnic crime especially when it's knife crime.. I'm from the South East as well and a rather not nice part yet there the crime was predominantly young white males. Though your area is obviously different and has effect on your feelings and judgement towards it which is fully understandable. Yet nationwide stats show as a whole its an issue for all races not just black people, that was my point with SR post, he's taking regional ethnic issues and applying to the whole of the UK and that's where the numbers differ.

My issue with SR posts wasn't just at the race crime, its the whole immigration thing assuming people don't integrate based on race or culture because they are not from here yet most of these people are. That's why I even said if I'm missing something to him feel free to correct me. I stand by my points I said in response to him.

But perhaps this topic is for another thread rather than about the next PM as its a little off piste

I agree, the old data is almost irrelevant. Circumstances in communities have changed dramatically in the last 10 years. Support for communities and the resources the Police have has almost fallen off a cliff. If the data was relevant the growth in crime would be a straight line graph, maybe rising in line with immigration as people from countries with different values have arrived.

The graph indicates a critical mass (explosion) point. But looking for only one driver for that growth is too simplistic. There's a whole raft of reasons for the increase. However, there is one resource that feeds all the drivers, and that is money. Money for education, money for Policing, money to grow businesses that will provide jobs.

Blaming immigration for some of the rise is as foolish as not blaming immigration for some of the rise. If have a look at foreign prison population in the UK, what they're in for and where they are from you will see clear indicators that there are a few countries whose immigrants have very different values. Stopping immigration would be wrong, even from the few countries whose individuals have a propensity to violence. Controlled immigration is the answer to more people coming in but isn't the answer to the problem that is already here.

Until communities and the Police are properly supported, irrespective of colour, crime won't go away. And, as Tashy says, until Parliament gets its act together with actions rather than trying to buy votes with empty promises, there will be no change.

 

[Wolf]

I agree, the old data is almost irrelevant. Circumstances in communities have changed dramatically in the last 10 years. Support for communities and the resources the Police have has almost fallen off a cliff. If the data was relevant the growth in crime would be a straight line graph, maybe rising in line with immigration as people from countries with different values have arrived.

The graph indicates a critical mass (explosion) point. But looking for only one driver for that growth is too simplistic. There's a whole raft of reasons for the increase. However, there is one resource that feeds all the drivers, and that is money. Money for education, money for Policing, money to grow businesses that will provide jobs.

Blaming immigration for some of the rise is as foolish as not blaming immigration for some of the rise. If have a look at foreign prison population in the UK, what they're in for and where they are from you will see clear indicators that there are a few countries whose immigrants have very different values. Stopping immigration would be wrong, even from the few countries whose individuals have a propensity to violence. Controlled immigration is the answer to more people coming in but isn't the answer to the problem that is already here.

Until communities and the Police are properly supported, irrespective of colour, crime won't go away. And, as Tashy says, until Parliament gets its act together with actions rather than trying to buy votes with empty promises, there will be no change.

Absolutely spot on

 

[Fade and Die]

 

[SocketRocket]

I generally stay out of political threads but a lot of what you say here seems so contradictory. Unless I'm misreading it so feel free to correct me or elaborate to make it more understandable.

Your opinion of multiculturalism is where its encouraged to live in communities with different cultures, yet the next sentence you state that discourages people.. That in itself makes little sense unless by encouraged you mean forced therefore people are effectively discouraged through lack of choice. Yet that can't be as everyone has choice in where they live to a certain extent and if they choose not to integrate based on race, religion or other factors who are we to comment on their choices as long as its done respectfully.

Also your point about their adopted country. Just because someone is a different culture, race or religion doesn't mean this their adoptive country, You are aware a lot in fact the majority were born here. So again are you actually meaning to refer to immigrants that don't just do as we do, if so have you yourself ever experienced what it's like to be moved from your comfort of your own religion, surroundings and I don't mean living in another western country, I mean something the polar opposite e.g a country where you don't have the freedoms here or different cultures, you can't just arrive somewhere new and expect immediate integration especially if people are so versed in their own ways, integration for some migrants could take a whole generation. Plus when you think about as a nation are Brits any better, go on any holiday nobody tries to speak the language instead we expect them to speak English and if they don't do we try to speak theirs generally not most just shout louder and slower expecting them to understand.

As for the knife crime part you're clearly not looking through the data but in fact disregarding it completely, you say all the murders you see are by black people yet the figures showed higher percentage of knife crime is committed by white people, proven by something posted here alone in this thread. Most of the news articles on TV however focus on London where the ethnic levels are higher so of course that's disproportionate to the country as a whole, so if your watching the news yes you may see more black crime but when only one area is a focus that's what you'll see.

Maybe I'm missing what your trying to say, but the little I've read there seems to be a lot of finger pointing at "non UK white folk" as I say maybe I'm missing your points but I'm not sure I am.

Sorry for not getting back to you quicker, I am very busy at the moment and dont have time for a protracted reply. I can only say at this point that when referring to Multiculturalism I refer to the effect over time and not with current immigrants, IMO it creates division rather than integration and a great deal of crime relating to drugs, Knives and Guns emanate from these societies. I am not suggesting we stop immigration but rather control it better and work towards better integration of cultures rather than the way multiculturalism actively promotes separatism.

 

[Deleted member 1147]

View attachment 27679

Boris’ tour bus?

 

[Fade and Die]

I know another 4 murders over a weekend in Londonistan isn’t really news anymore, but the shooting in Leyton made me laugh.(not actually btw) The bloke is lying on the pavement bleeding to death and there’s a Police Station on the other side of the road. Unfortunately it was closed.😮

 

[Tashyboy]

I know another 4 murders over a weekend in Londonistan isn’t really news anymore, but the shooting in Leyton made me laugh.(not actually btw) The bloke is lying on the pavement bleeding to death and there’s a Police Station on the other side of the road. Unfortunately it was closed.😮

Now an empty police station. Thats slack. In manchester they grow cannabis in there empty police stations.

 

[SocketRocket]

I know another 4 murders over a weekend in Londonistan isn’t really news anymore, but the shooting in Leyton made me laugh.(not actually btw) The bloke is lying on the pavement bleeding to death and there’s a Police Station on the other side of the road. Unfortunately it was closed.😮

Probably better if it was a Doctors Surgery with someone in it.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Looking forward to BJ vs JH tomorrow evening. Should make for an interesting contrast and clash of styles - if not anything much different in the message that BJ will admit to.