The great drive for dough putt for show debate thread.

[Backache]

One thing I think is that people are talking about fairways hit, accuracy and dispersion as if they are synonymous.
My understanding is that when the statisticians say that there is no loss of accuracy with increased length, they are referring to degrees of line, When converted to lateral dispersion and fairways hit the increased length will result in slightly greater lateral dispersion and fewer fairways hit
When used sensibly at appropriate holes the increased distance outweighs the increased dispersion in strokes gained.

 

[clubchamp98]

Yes, Scott Fawcett is a good place to start on this, and his Decade app, though I dont know anyone who has tried it. The principle is how all elite golfer play today, though it does need some appreciation of statistics and an understanding of strokes gained rather than the older, borderline useless measures as guides to improvement, such and GIRs, and FIRs. That method essentially calculates a best club and aim line for every shot, based on loong/short, left/right dispersion and the character of the target area.

The flaw in the old, simplistic view of aiming to maximise GIRs as in themselves a good thing, is usually explained by an example such as a hole with water or bunker cluster in the teeshot landing zone off the right of the fairway. In this case, FIRs can be maximised by aiming down the middle, or middle of ones dispersion. But that takes no account of the price paid for the - high number - of shots that will miss the fairway. A better strategy to optimise your score, which is the goal rather than arbitrary measures such as FIRs, is to aim for the left edge of the fairway. So half the shots only will land in the fairway - and half in the rough. But that is better and insures against the shots that would end up in the water by aiming down the middle, even if more shots would end on the fairway. Its just a further extension of the longer in the rough can be better than shorter in the fairway. So your strategy specifically guides you towards reducing FIRS...but reducing your score.

That might work in elite golf but won’t work for 95% of ams imo.

 

[Backsticks]

I took up the game in 2020 and got myself down to 10.1 in summer last year and was obsessed with getting to single figures. But a winter chasing distance (which didn't work, other than costing me all and any accuracy) and the birth of my second born has meant that my golf went to pot this year.

 

[Backsticks]

Care to expand on what you tried Hefty, and what went wrong there ? Over training, injury, other game aspects neglected at the expense of speed chasing ?

In exactly the same spot. Got to 10.0 this summer, 2 shots better than ever before. Slipped out to 10.7 now for hibernation but that more due to not getting much golf in over the last few months for a variety of reasons. But game still there to get to singles, and that is the goal next year.
Added 6-8mph driver head speed over the last year, and thinking I would like to push for a further 5. But dont want to do damage. Short game practice the intention also, and think 8 is in range.

 

[KenL]

Improving your short game, putting especially, is the key to lowering hcp.

 

[Mel Smooth]

Improving your short game, putting especially, is the key to lowering hcp.

If you're distance restricted, both are vital. Players with low putting averages will also be sticking those shots from 30 yards or less close enough to give them a look at a single putt quite frequently.


Having said that, the youth has got down to 13 this year and his putting average is probably not much lower than 35/36 - it's something we need to work on - single figures is his target next year which he'd be happy with at his age.

 

[Jigger]

Some things I’ve picked up from reading the four foundations of golf and listening to podcasts like hack it out.

Diving: the further down you are the less club you have in for your approach. Statistics now prove that long drives in play help lower handicaps.

Approach: the closer you can Get to the hole with your approach the less putts you will take. However, stats prove that GIR is the most important factor as missing and chipping reasonably close does not guarantee a 1 putt every time.

Putting: being a good putter will guarantee more saves from missed GIR and birdie putts when you have a good approach but you do need to have the rest of your game supporting you to get the ball closer.

recovery shots: it’s generally recognised that you should avoid penalty areas and trees but having a decent bunker and short game will generally help lessen the effect of green side issues.

Generally a lot of all of this is about strike patterns. If you’re not hitting shots we’ll, you’ll be a higher handicap.

 

[KenL]

Long drives from the fairway are a big bonus. However, if you end up in trouble because you are trying to hit it further you won't improve.

 

[clubchamp98]

Long drives from the fairway are a big bonus. However, if you end up in trouble because you are trying to hit it further you won't improve.

Spot on.
I am losing distance as I get older.
Tried to up my speed but lost my accuracy
I hit about 230yds now.
one thing I have done is I always lay up if I can’t get on the green to 80yds.
I practice from 80 yds a lot. Confident I can get it close from there!
find your best lay up distance and play to that, this takes big numbers off the card.

 

[HeftyHacker]

Care to expand on what you tried Hefty, and what went wrong there ? Over training, injury, other game aspects neglected at the expense of speed chasing ?

In exactly the same spot. Got to 10.0 this summer, 2 shots better than ever before. Slipped out to 10.7 now for hibernation but that more due to not getting much golf in over the last few months for a variety of reasons. But game still there to get to singles, and that is the goal next year.
Added 6-8mph driver head speed over the last year, and thinking I would like to push for a further 5. But dont want to do damage. Short game practice the intention also, and think 8 is in range.

A variety of things really. I have to say this was done without any sort of coaching or feedback other than the toptracer range.

Basically I'd always hit a pretty straight or slight fade with my driver, however it was quite a low ballflight - which was fine in summer with plenty of rollout but in softer conditions it left me 30 or 40 yards behind my regular playing partners who carried it far further than me. BUT I was probably the most accurate.

I basically spent the winter trying to hit up on the ball more for a higher flight and basically hitting it harder.

I went from hitting to a fade to a draw but I ended up with a 3 way miss. If I swung comfortably then I I was coming from the inside so much that it was becoming a massive push (miss 1), if I left the face open doing this it ended up a high pushy slice (miss 2). Then I'd get annoyed and go after it at which point I was coming right over the top and getting this horrible low hook (miss 3).

On the course it meant I didn't have a bloody clue what was going to happen so I couldn't play for a miss and I ended up losing balls left and right. I counted one round I'd lost 8 balls off the tee - off 10.7!

Eventually I bit the bullet and got a lesson where he explained the above to me and we started essentially rebuilding my driver swing.

It's now in a place where I'm pretty comfortable with the driver again, I don't have many swing thoughts and it's performing well on the whole.

However, due to the lack of play time my touch on and around the greens can be very hit and miss so I think that's what's costing me most atm. My handicap increase does seem to have plateaued somewhat thankfully (at 12.8) and I feel as though with a bit of consistency I can get back down to where I was.

 

[Backsticks]

Long drives from the fairway are a big bonus. However, if you end up in trouble because you are trying to hit it further you won't improve.

Discussed earlier in the thread at length, but while the above statement has a logical correctness, it is somewhat misleading in suggesting that longer will lead to more shots from the rough. But thats not the case in reality.

 

[Backsticks]

If you're distance restricted, both are vital. Players with low putting averages will also be sticking those shots from 30 yards or less close enough to give them a look at a single putt quite frequently.


Having said that, the youth has got down to 13 this year and his putting average is probably not much lower than 35/36 - it's something we need to work on - single figures is his target next year which he'd be happy with at his age.

Try to gather some strokes gained data for him. Putts/round is probably the most useless of all the older performance indicators. He could be a super iron player and bad shortgame, and 35/36 putts would be the average - but putting could still be excellent, and the 35/36 a consequence of the iron and shortgame performance alone.

 

[Backsticks]

Improving your short game, putting especially, is the key to lowering hcp.

I would have felt that decades ago. But it was only by getting longer that I broke a barrier.
Felt my shortgame was good, and while it brought my scores to the better end of my typically 12/13 hc range whenevet I practiced to get it sharp, it never got me lower.

Looking at strokes gained this summer, I am an 8.5 putting, 10.4 short game, 8.5 approach, and 10.7 from the tee. 8.3 overall.

Shortgame and putting got no special practice and is in the same range as always - I feel, I have no hard data before 2022 - so my long (or too short !) game looks like it was the one holding me back. Especially length of second shots. I felt I was OK and confident enough playing my 4 hybrid from the fairway. But taking a 6 or 7 iron instead was a revelation, and where the good approach figure is coming from. I am a clear and consistent 15-20 yards longer from the tee than 2 years ago, and almost one iron for iron longer. Effectively two clubs shorter to all par 4s. Havent gone Stack/Speedstick, yet..., as still making small incremental distance gains.

 

[bobmac]

I would have felt that decades ago. But it was only by getting longer that I broke a barrier.

How long was a normal drive before you increased your length?

 

[Backsticks]

How long was a normal drive before you increased your length?

Not much over 200 total in normal conditions Id guess. Thats with wooden woods and old balls 30 years ago, and, the switching to Ti drivers and modern ball probably kept it about the same compensating for age over the last 15. But I would also have played 5 wood or more recently a 17deg hybrid from the tee quite a bit, on the better-off-in-the-fairway philosophy, but see now what a mistake that was. So more driver, plus longer driver - 230 something is now routine for me - made the breakthrough. It wasnt my own realisation, so I claim no credit for it. Just following what the whole golf world has learnt over the last 10-15 years, and was a bit late to the party.

 

[bobmac]

So you've increased your driver length from 200-230 yds?

 

[clubchamp98]

I would have felt that decades ago. But it was only by getting longer that I broke a barrier.
Felt my shortgame was good, and while it brought my scores to the better end of my typically 12/13 hc range whenevet I practiced to get it sharp, it never got me lower.

Looking at strokes gained this summer, I am an 8.5 putting, 10.4 short game, 8.5 approach, and 10.7 from the tee. 8.3 overall.

Shortgame and putting got no special practice and is in the same range as always - I feel, I have no hard data before 2022 - so my long (or too short !) game looks like it was the one holding me back. Especially length of second shots. I felt I was OK and confident enough playing my 4 hybrid from the fairway. But taking a 6 or 7 iron instead was a revelation, and where the good approach figure is coming from. I am a clear and consistent 15-20 yards longer from the tee than 2 years ago, and almost one iron for iron longer. Effectively two clubs shorter to all par 4s. Havent gone Stack/Speedstick, yet..., as still making small incremental distance gains.

Yes on a recent holiday my pals were 30/40 yds longer than me off the tee.
they were playing great golf but I was struggling a bit.
mainly due to them hitting shorter clubs into the greens ,I was hitting woods on a lot of holes.
I switched to a shorter course ,only about 200yds and that made a massive difference.

So length is massively important I am converted.!

 

[Backsticks]

So you've increased your driver length from 200-230 yds?

Its a bit more complicated than that. But probably more like 20yds best to best. Best in the past 215, now 235-240. But I regularly hit the 23X now. In the past, even though I had the capability of 215, with the driver, I would have been inhibited, thinking precision, dont be wild, club position based swing thoughs rather than speed, hit the fairway. Which took something off drives, making many even solid hits more like 200-210.

And its about more than just driver. Am longer with all clubs, so its a double win.

Local range getting Trackman last year was the main trigger, promting me to then get a PRGR, and push for club speed. It gave me the breakthrough that no other improvement drives() did ; lessons, lots of shortgame practice, regular range to keep things going through the winters, putting practice, books, club changes. And most surprising to me was how increasing speed has improved my swing, giving a consistency improvement, not wildness or more balls OB or in the trees. Minimal golf in latter part of summer due to holidays/family/weather, but convinced there is another shot or two to drop with my game just as it is.

 

[bobmac]

And most surprising to me was how increasing speed has improved my swing, giving a consistency improvement, not wildness or more balls OB or in the trees.

I think the opposite is true, your improved technique has increased your speed.
But even with the increase, I would still avoid 7,000 yard golf courses if I were you. Or stick to the yellow tees.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I think the opposite is true, your improved technique has increased your speed.
But even with the increase, I would still avoid 7,000 yard golf courses if I were you. Or stick to the yellow tees.

If I look to swing faster I.e. with more commitment to the shot, I am less likely to try and manipulate my swing, and so I can find that a ‘faster’ downswing (with fuller backswing) will sometimes give me a ‘better’ swing and outcome. Though that may simply be down to my history of 35yrs of never playing with more than a 3/4 swing with a lot of manipulation through the strike.