The great drive for dough putt for show debate thread.

[Deleted member 31467]

Most of those strokes will be gained tee to green.

SOME of those shots will be gained tee to green but your mate backsticks still seems to think that gaining distance is the be all and end all.

 

[Backsticks]

And there aren't 15 shots to be gained through an extra 30 yards off the tee either.

Thats correct. You probably need a bit more than an extra 30 yards. And the distance gain is more that just from the tee, its main gain is in the second shot, on approach. In that 15 to scratch scenario, 10 or 11 of the shots need hitting it further. The other 4-5 are split between putting and chipping gains.

 

[Backsticks]

SOME of those shots will be gained tee to green but your mate backsticks still seems to think that gaining distance is the be all and end all.

It isnt my view, rather, the view of best informed data based authorities.

I am not saying all the shots come from distance at all. You can probably improve your 15hc a couple of shots by improving your putting.

Distance is not the be all and end all in that it will bridge 15 to scratch, but it is unavoidably essential if you are to do that, and does contribute the majority of the strokes gained. Or put another way, chipping and putting improvement will certainly improve your score - but you still probably wont even get to single figures. U less you can get longer.

 

[Deleted member 31467]

It isnt my view, rather, the view of best informed data based authorities.

I am not saying all the shots come from distance at all. You can probably improve your 15hc a couple of shots by improving your putting.

Distance is not the be all and end all in that it will bridge 15 to scratch, but it is unavoidably essential if you are to do that, and does contribute the majority of the strokes gained. Or put another way, chipping and putting improvement will certainly improve your score - but you still probably wont even get to single figures. U less you can get longer.

I'm afraid you are misinformed. Enjoy your golf. Putting you on ignore now so I'm not tempting to keep getting involved in this pointless discussion.

 

[bobmac]

In that 15 to scratch scenario, 10 or 11 of the shots need hitting it further. The other 4-5 are split between putting and chipping gains.

Meaning the long game isn't the only way to make big strides from mid hc to elite

I am not saying all the shots come from distance at all. You can probably improve your 15hc a couple of shots by improving your putting.

Distance is not the be all and end all in that it will bridge 15 to scratch, but it is unavoidably essential if you are to do that, and does contribute the majority of the strokes gained. Or put another way, chipping and putting improvement will certainly improve your score - but you still probably wont even get to single figures. U less you can get longer.

Look, no-one is denying that, all other things being equal, being nearer the hole can make the game easier. But being 5 feet nearer the hole will not help at all if your weakness is putting.

By all means, work at increasing your length but don't do it at the expense of accuracy. And don't tell me that's a myth because I've got 50 years of data telling me it's true

 

[Doon frae Troon]

The average golfer [?] will probably hit 12/14 drives and 35/37 putts.
Logic says work on your putting.

 

[Backsticks]

The average golfer [?] will probably hit 12/14 drives and 35/37 putts.
Logic says work on your putting.

That is a simplistic and incorrect conclusion, and not logic at all.

 

[D-S]

The average golfer [?] will probably hit 12/14 drives and 35/37 putts.
Logic says work on your putting.

Also the average golfer, even if he increases his length by 10 or 20 yards, will still miss half the greens in regulation, so improving his chipping might be a good idea too.

 

[RichA]

Meaning the long game isn't the only way to make big strides from mid hc to elite

Look, no-one is denying that, all other things being equal, being nearer the hole can make the game easier. But being 5 feet nearer the hole will not help at all if your weakness is putting.

By all means, work at increasing your length but don't do it at the expense of accuracy. And don't tell me that's a myth because I've got 50 years of data telling me it's true

I have far less experience, but I am the mid-handicap golfer who can hit the ball.
Having always been sporty and being a fairly fit 50-something, I am capable of hitting the ball a decent distance. When I go for it, my distances are up there with most lower handicap golfers I play with. However, control is easily lost. My round can just as easily be high 90s as low 80s due to finding trouble off the tee.
If I go out with the intent to keep the ball in play, I can consistently play to my mid-handicap as I pitch, chip and putt consistently fairly well.
Apologies to the stat-holes (Lou Stagner reference), but I find my personal, anecdotal evidence has greater influence on my scores than the data of a million other golfers, many of whose strengths and weaknesses are totally different to mine, even if their handicaps are similar.
Without using Arccos or Shotscope I know that shots are gained for me by finding the ball on the shorter grass.

 

[Deleted member 29109]

Meaning the long game isn't the only way to make big strides from mid hc to elite

Look, no-one is denying that, all other things being equal, being nearer the hole can make the game easier. But being 5 feet nearer the hole will not help at all if your weakness is putting.

By all means, work at increasing your length but don't do it at the expense of accuracy. And don't tell me that's a myth because I've got 50 years of data telling me it's true

If you are poor at putting, being closer to the hole WILL help. How can it not

 

[CountLippe]

The average golfer [?] will probably hit 12/14 drives and 35/37 putts.
Logic says work on your putting.

Also the average golfer, even if he increases his length by 10 or 20 yards, will still miss half the greens in regulation, so improving his chipping might be a good idea too.

Correct, but not all chips shots are the same. A 3iron approach will probably (I'm guessing) leave a mid handicap golfer on average 20 - 30 yards from the flag, even elite golfers are struggling to get up and down from here. A mid or short iron approach will give you a chance.

 

[Deleted member 29109]

The average golfer [?] will probably hit 12/14 drives and 35/37 putts.
Logic says work on your putting.

And those drives have a huge impact on your ability to score well.

How many shots are you going to save of those 35 by working on your putting? If you average 35 putts per round, you aren’t going to improve that much to drop from a mid handicap to single figures.

How many of those 35 putts can you realistically expect to hole and how many are tap ins? In reality there are only a few putts that have any significant on your overall score.

 

[sunshine]

The average golfer [?] will probably hit 12/14 drives and 35/37 putts.
Logic says work on your putting.

Classic wind up

 

[Orikoru]

And those drives have a huge impact on your ability to score well.

How many shots are you going to save of those 35 by working on your putting? If you average 35 putts per round, you aren’t going to improve that much to drop from a mid handicap to single figures.

How many of those 35 putts can you realistically expect to hole and how many are tap ins? In reality there are only a few putts that have any significant on your overall score.

Putting average is too random anyway, in my experience. Some days I hit 29 some days it's 39, could be that the greens were a wildly different speed, or they were bobbly that day, or you simply hit more greens in regulation so your number of putts goes up - too many variables to really see noticeable improvement to your handicap directly correlating to putting. In my opinion of course.

 

[Backsticks]

Meaning the long game isn't the only way to make big strides from mid hc to elite

Look, no-one is denying that, all other things being equal, being nearer the hole can make the game easier. But being 5 feet nearer the hole will not help at all if your weakness is putting.

By all means, work at increasing your length but don't do it at the expense of accuracy. And don't tell me that's a myth because I've got 50 years of data telling me it's true

There is really only about 10 years worth of data. Some before that for tour players, but little or nothing from before that. Anything pre 2000 is little more than old wives tales now.

 

[sunshine]

I don't agree.
Longer isn't always better as it often comes wider dispersion.
I know people don't agree with that but I don't care, my opinion is based on personal experience, not some dodgy statistics

This looks like the crux of the issue.

I think you are arguing that if a 20 handicapper starts wilding thrashing at the ball, their dispersion will increase, and it won't help their scores. You are an experienced pro, you have probably seen this many times and recognise this won't work.

But that is not what backsticks (and others) are arguing. They are stating that if you improve your swing so you gain distance, you will score better, and the route to low scoring is typically better ball striking and more distance. Better players hit the ball further, it's no coincidence.

Matt Fitzpatrick hits the ball further than me, his dispersion is tighter than mine. He went and added a load of distance to his game through speed training (among other things), I bet his dispersion has not increased.

 

[Deleted member 29109]

Putting average is too random anyway, in my experience. Some days I hit 29 some days it's 39, could be that the greens were a wildly different speed, or they were bobbly that day, or you simply hit more greens in regulation so your number of putts goes up - too many variables to really see noticeable improvement to your handicap directly correlating to putting. In my opinion of course.

Number of putts per round is meaningless as a measure of putting performance.

 

[Crow]

There is really only about 10 years worth of data. Some before that for tour players, but little or nothing from before that. Anything pre 2000 is little more than old wives tales now.

Or, you're getting back to a time when the equipment didn't permit such massive distance gains through training.

Yes, a long hitter still had an advantage but shorter hitters weren't so penalised for their lack of distance as the difference between them and the long guys wasn't so huge.

Hey, should we be looking at limiting the ball speed and CoR on clubs? (YES!)

 

[bobmac]

If you are poor at putting, being closer to the hole WILL help. How can it not

Because if you can't hole a putt over 5 feet, what difference does it make being 10 feet or 15 feet from the hole.

For the stat lovers...

Rory Mcllroy 2013
Driving distance....310yds 3rd on the PGA tour
Driving accuracy ...108th on the PGA tour 59.93%
GIR...6th on the PGA tour 69.44%
Proximity to the hole 34.4 feet 31st on the PGA tour
And lastly, scoring average 69.27 1st on the PGA tour

Rory Mcllroy 2023
Driving distance....328yds 1st on the PGA tour
Driving accuracy ...193th on the PGA tour 50.89%
GIR...172nd on the PGA tour 62.96%
Proximity to the hole 38.2 feet 81st on the PGA tour
Scoring average 70.38 90th on the PGA tour.

So Rory gained 18 yards in 10 years
His accuracy dropped from 59.93% to 50.89% of fairways hit and lost 85 places on tour
And being 18 yards closer meant his GIR dropped from 69.44% to 62.96 and lost 166 places on tour.
His proximity to the hole worsened from 34.4 feet to 38.2 and 50 places on tour.
And his average scores increased by 4 shots per tournament.
If he had been 4 shots better at the 2022 Open Championship, he would have won it by 2
So his 18 yard improvement cost him last year's Open

So even the best in the world can't control a 1.8 yard annual increase in length.

Based on the last 10 years of data.
No old wives were consulted.

Matt Fitzpatrick hits the ball further than me, his dispersion is tighter than mine. He went and added a load of distance to his game through speed training (among other things), I bet his dispersion has not increased.

Matt Fitzpatrick 2018
Driving distance 287.9 yds accuracy 66.06 %

2022-2023
Driving distance 305.1 yds accuracy 60.12 %

So his 17 yard gain has meant he is hitting 6.4% less fairways and his proximity to the hole has increased from 35.7ft to 41.4ft

 

[Deleted member 29109]

What does that 6% equate to? 1 extra missed fairway. 2 at the most. Hardly a disaster.

Fitzpatrick is the poster boy for gaining distance. He was the laughing stock at the Ryder cup because he was so short he struggled to reach the last in 2.