The great drive for dough putt for show debate thread.

[Bdill93]

I never said it would.
I said single figure STANDARD putting is easier to ACHIEVE for a 20+ handicapper than single figure STANDARD long game.

The player who will never achieve single figure handicap (the vast majority of amateurs) could have a reasonable chance of achieving single figure STANDARD putting.

Of course they could.

But they'll make more birdies by getting the ball closer to the hole before they take that putt.

 

[Voyager EMH]

Of course they could.

But they'll make more birdies by getting the ball closer to the hole before they take that putt.

The won't make any birdies if they miss every birdie chance putt.

 

[Bdill93]

The won't make any birdies if they miss every birdie chance putt.

But no one misses every putt. My 38 handicap mate makes putts from 5 foot during his round? Ive never met a golfer who 3 putts every green

 

[Voyager EMH]

I've seen plenty of people miss 18 putts in one round.

 

[Bdill93]

I've seen plenty of people miss 18 putts in one round.

I think we all have - in every round we have ever played.

 

[Voyager EMH]

Played with a 20+ handicap player in a comp a few years ago and he missed 7 putts in the first 3 holes. (3-putt, 4-putt, 3-putt)
I pointed that out to him on the 4th tee and he was not pleased to be told that fact about his game.
This is the whole point for me - many players just don't want to even think about improving their short game.

 

[Bdill93]

Played with a 20+ handicap player in a comp a few years ago and he missed 7 putts in the first 3 holes. (3-putt, 4-putt, 3-putt)
I pointed that out to him on the 4th tee and he was not pleased to be told that fact about his game.
This is the whole point for me - many players just don't want to even think about improving their short game.

But those players probably cant be bothered to improve their long game either.

Plenty at my club who just go out and shoot what they shoot.

 

[D-S]

You will be single figures in that scenario.

So a 20+ player with a Scratch player short game will be single figures? As a scratch player probably misses 8 greens a round, this would assume that the 20 + handicapper always get down in 3 from off the 8 missed greens and never 3 putts in the 10 greens that are hit in regulation?

 

[Backsticks]

So a 20+ player with a Scratch player short game will be single figures? As a scratch player probably misses 8 greens a round, this would assume that the 20 + handicapper always get down in 3 from off the 8 missed greens and never 3 putts in the 10 greens that are hit in regulation?

No, the scenario was a scratch level long game, and a 20+ short game.

 

[Backsticks]

I never said it would.
I said single figure STANDARD putting is easier to ACHIEVE for a 20+ handicapper than single figure STANDARD long game.

The player who will never achieve single figure handicap (the vast majority of amateurs) could have a reasonable chance of achieving single figure STANDARD putting.

This I would agree with. It still probably takes a lot of diligent practice, but is more in the reach of many golfers. And will knock 2 or 3 shots off his HI.

 

[D-S]

So a player with a Scratch player long game and the short game of a 20+ player will be single figures? As a scratch player probably misses 8 greens a round, this would assume that the 20 + handicapper always get down in 3 from off the 8 missed greens and never 3 putts in the 10 greens that are hit in regulation?

 

[sjw]

As I understand, it removes outliers, ie duffs, from the average.

I think it removes exceptionally long ones as well

 

[Backache]

Yes, to confirm, people whose income relies on publishing golf statistics, who strongly believe in golf statistics. Have convinced me, via the statistics which have been published and read by many many thousands of people, that I am also free to read an interpret however I want, more so than a bunch of well meaning people on an internet forum throwing about anecdotal evidence from their Saturday 4ball.

I don't know if you think a golf professionals opinion on your swing is unreliable because his income relies on it?

But to put it into context as far as I'm aware none of the above peoples income is reliant on their knowledge of golf statistics though they may have augmented it with a knowledge.

Mark Broadie is a professor of business and economics at a prestigious American University and applied his knowledge of statistical knowledge to golf which he plays as an amateur to a decent level.

Lou Stagner headed up a statistical analysis team as his job and analysed golf statistics as a hobby and has been taken on by Arcoss because his analysis is so good.

Crossfield is a teaching professional who makes his living providing content on golf for the internet and tries to keep up to date with statistics but as far as I cansee hasno pecuniary interest in it.

 

[Backache]

So a player with a Scratch player long game and the short game of a 20+ player will be single figures? As a scratch player probably misses 8 greens a round, this would assume that the 20 + handicapper always get down in 3 from off the 8 missed greens and never 3 putts in the 10 greens that are hit in regulation?

Why does it assume that? Even 20 handicappers will sometimes get up and down in two from a missed green and occasionally single putt a green hit in regulation.
And if you have the long game of a scratch golfer you are hitting the odd green in fewer than regulation.

 

[D-S]

Why does it assume that? Even 20 handicappers will sometimes get up and down in two from a missed green and occasionally single putt a green hit in regulation.
And if you have the long game of a scratch golfer you are hitting the odd green in fewer than regulation.

Yes and they will often duff and thin chips, leave balls in bunkers so they will not get the ball onto a missed green, plus they will have a few three putts. These are 20+ handicappers.

 

[Backache]

Yes and they will often duff and thin chips, leave balls in bunkers so they will not get the ball onto a missed green, plus they will have a few three putts. These are 20+ handicappers.

Of course it will happen occasionally, the point is it does not assume they will always two putt or get down in three from missed greens.

They will vary, but on average from where an average scratch player leaves their shots the average twenty handicapper has a sufficient short game for their best eight out of twenty rounds to generate a single figure handicap.

Not every twenty handicapper some have a truly woeful short game but the average high handicapper loses two thirds of their strokes on the long game compared with a low handicapper which has been a pretty robust finding from different data sets.

 

[Backsticks]

So a player with a Scratch player long game and the short game of a 20+ player will be single figures? As a scratch player probably misses 8 greens a round, this would assume that the 20 + handicapper always get down in 3 from off the 8 missed greens and never 3 putts in the 10 greens that are hit in regulation?

Not quite. They will 3 putt 2-3 times per round, but will recover some of that with some rarer single putts from the 10 or so GIRs. But will be 1-2 over for those 10 holes. They will not save too many up and downs from the 8 or so missed greens and will have the occasional 4 from there. But most missed greens will be around the green, and not full shots. They will maybe save a shot from those 8 holes on average. Putting their average score at about 10 over. So a single figure handicap index of about 6 or 7.

 

[D-S]

Well, whilst not impugning the stats, the average 20+ handicapper seems to be a lot better than all those I have encountered.

 

[Deleted member 31467]

Mid handicap 15, elite, scratch or better.
How else would you suggest that gap be bridged ? There arent 15 shots to gain in chipping and putting...

And there aren't 15 shots to be gained through an extra 30 yards off the tee either.

 

[Deleted member 29109]

And there aren't 15 shots to be gained through an extra 30 yards off the tee either.

Most of those strokes will be gained tee to green.