The Footie Thread

[Swango1980]

You picked out 2 players from the whole list.

We had World Class players then and World Class players now, it doesn’t give us the right to win anything.

Only because I didn't want to repeat the whole list again. I included them all on the list originally simply because I felt they were great players in their day.

And, as I said before, when England had World Class players before, they were considered a major disappointment. A huge failure. Even though they were up against some unbelievable international sides.

So, why should Southgate get more credit for managing an England side that have won nothing, that is competing against sides that are relatively much poorer than the teams England faced in the past?

 

[GB72]

I was going to suggest that.
But is that practicable with him playing in Holland
GS has chosen his staff he shouldn’t need players to do this.

True and I guess that clubs may not release players who are not selected in the squad but if he needs someone to gee up the dressing room, it would seem logical to have him on a short term staff contract.

 

[Billysboots]

But we arecompeting at the highest level, finals and semi-final are not bad if, as Lord T says, there are no oustanding teams and a few decent teams then he’s done ok.

We’re not, though!

England’s record against top teams once we reach the latter stages of tournaments is appalling. We’ve got to the latter stages of recent tournaments largely because of extremely friendly draws.

 

[GB72]

We’re not, though!

England’s record against top teams once we reach the latter stages of tournaments is appalling. We’ve got to the latter stages of recent tournaments largely because of extremely friendly draws.

Exactly this, with the players and resources we have, we should be going into the Euros confident of beating anyone but I am not sure anyone feels like that.

With the players and set up we have, we have now reached a stage where anything short of winning should be seen as a degree of failure.

That said, I cannot see Southgate being in the job beyond the summer. Either we do not win, in which case there is a clear set of evidence that he cannot get us to the very top and clear the final hurdle and so should not get a new contract, or we win and Southgate leaves on top and cashes in on a lucrative job elsewhere.

 

[PaulMdj]

We’re not, though!

England’s record against top teams once we reach the latter stages of tournaments is appalling. We’ve got to the latter stages of recent tournaments largely because of extremely friendly draws.

Eh! He’s took us to 3 Major Championships, lost a Semi-Final in extra time, a Final on penalties and we were beaten in a quarter final by the favourites for the event!

So, yes, we really are competing at the highest level.

How you describe our record as appalling in latter stages is beyond me!

 

[PaulMdj]

Only because I didn't want to repeat the whole list again. I included them all on the list originally simply because I felt they were great players in their day.

And, as I said before, when England had World Class players before, they were considered a major disappointment. A huge failure. Even though they were up against some unbelievable international sides.

So, why should Southgate get more credit for managing an England side that have won nothing, that is competing against sides that are relatively much poorer than the teams England faced in the past?

So in the past the players were huge failures, not the managers! Weird!

 

[GB72]

So in the past the players were huge failures, not the managers! Weird!

I think there is some element of player blame as well as you read about the cliques, club groups and unwelcoming atmosphere and that is the fault of all parties.

 

[Reemul]

Eh! He’s took us to 3 Major Championships, lost a Semi-Final in extra time, a Final on penalties and we were beaten in a quarter final by the favourites for the event!

So, yes, we really are competing at the highest level.

How you describe our record as appalling in latter stages is beyond me!

Yep and we should be winning them, not turning up and losing those games, you may see that as success and be happy to keep him on but most don't, we feel you HAVE to take advantage of those games with the team we have and win, you don't see Klopp or Pep accepting those sort of results.

Your attitude is indicitive of why we will never win with Southgate and apologists keep him in his job, Spurs supporter by any chance...

 

[PaulMdj]

I think there is some element of player blame as well as you read about the cliques, club groups and unwelcoming atmosphere and that is the fault of all parties.

Totally agree, but it seems all our failures since 2016 have been laid at the manager’s door.

 

[Tashyboy]

Once we again though, no credit is given to Southgate to reaching these latter stages, all the time it’s excuses about easy sides of the draws etc etc.

Look at the team Italy beat in the Final and compare it to the sides that failed,

Euro 96 - Semi Final

Seaman
Southgate
Adams
Pearce
McManaman
Ince
Platt
Gascoigne
Anderton
Sheringham
Shearer

Euro 21

Pickford
Stones
Walker
Maguire
Trippier
Philips
Rice
Shaw
Sterling
Mount
Kane

Which is the stronger team? How many of the Euro 21 Final Team would actually get in to 96 Team?

Average age against Italy was under 24, maybe Southgate is getting dome things right, ie, age, more players making their debut.

As said, Southgate is not my choice, but at times I think we English fans are overly critical and have over exaggerated expectations.

And that team comparison clearly explains why Southgate is not up to it. Two words Maguire,Phillips. That’s why England have never won a trophy.

 

[PaulMdj]

Yep and we should be winning them, not turning up and losing those games, you may see that as success and be happy to keep him on but most don't, we feel you HAVE to take advantage of those games with the team we have and win, you don't see Klopp or Pep accepting those sort of results.

Your attitude is indicitive of why we will never win with Southgate and apologists keep him in his job, Spurs supporter by any chance...

If you’d actually read what I’ve posted, I would rid of Southgate tomorrow! However, back in the real world, the FA are not going to sack him and everytime he names a squad we get the same moans.

He is our 2nd most succesful manager, who we are stuck with and at least we have expectations of reaching the final stages of a competition, hopefully, miracles happen and we win the comp.

You can compare Pep and Klopp to anyone you like, but they are 2 totally different managers who buy and build the squads they want, National managers don’t.

 

[Hobbit]

If you’d actually read what I’ve posted, I would rid of Southgate tomorrow! However, back in the real world, the FA are not going to sack him and everytime he names a squad we get the same moans.

He is our 2nd most succesful manager, who we are stuck with and at least we have expectations of reaching the final stages of a competition, hopefully, miracles happen and we win the comp.

You can compare Pep and Klopp to anyone you like, but they are 2 totally different managers who buy and build the squads they want, National managers don’t.

He is a very successful manager. Pulis was a successful-ish manager at the Boro but he achieved something no other manager did - I stopped watching them. It’s also about style. The golden generation played some great football but didn’t quite succeed, probably as much down to some very good opposition. The current England team can cure insomnia within the first 20 mins.

I don’t know who I would bring in to replace him but I’d soon watch another failure playing well than another failure playing appallingly.

 

[nickjdavis]

Yes his record does speak for itself, he is the 2nd most succesful England Manager after Sir Alf.

Successful? Success is winning things, not coming a gallant second.

Eh! He’s took us to 3 Major Championships, lost a Semi-Final in extra time, a Final on penalties and we were beaten in a quarter final by the favourites for the event!

So, yes, we really are competing at the highest level.

How you describe our record as appalling in latter stages is beyond me!

We get to the major Championships by default....not once have we had what can be considered a tough draw in the qualifiers. Favourable draws in the final comps themselves have given us easy access to the latter stages. The Croatia team that beat us in the Semi Final were no better than us. The Italian side in the Final were there for the taking and we blew it through being too cautious. You can have France.

I don't think that its the winning or not winning things that is the issue that many have with GS....its more the fact that we have a team full of wonderful young talent and it isn't allowed to play to its potential

 

[PaulMdj]

He is a very successful manager. Pulis was a successful-ish manager at the Boro but he achieved something no other manager did - I stopped watching them. It’s also about style. The golden generation played some great football but didn’t quite succeed, probably as much down to some very good opposition. The current England team can cure insomnia within the first 20 mins.

I don’t know who I would bring in to replace him but I’d soon watch another failure playing well than another failure playing appallingly.

Sorry Bri, I don’t get that, look at the other responses, success is, apparently, measured by winning things, going to tournaments and getting knocked out but playing well is going make fans happy, I disagree.

 

[PaulMdj]

Successful? Success is winning things, not coming a gallant second.

We get to the major Championships by default....not once have we had what can be considered a tough draw in the qualifiers. Favourable draws in the final comps themselves have given us easy access to the latter stages. The Croatia team that beat us in the Semi Final were no better than us. The Italian side in the Final were there for the taking and we blew it through being too cautious. You can have France.

I don't think that its the winning or not winning things that is the issue that many have with GS....its more the fact that we have a team full of wonderful young talent and it isn't allowed to play to its potential

Croatia may not of been no better than us, but that doesn’t mean we had a right to beat them, the majority of that Croatia squad got to the semi finals the next time as well.

The Italy match was hugely disappointing, but we lost on penalties, we didn’t get outplayed and were certainly on the wrong side of some terrible decisions.

Totally agree on the success is winning things, at least with Southgate we’re getting closer than before, who knows if anyone else would of done better.

 

[Billysboots]

Eh! He’s took us to 3 Major Championships, lost a Semi-Final in extra time, a Final on penalties and we were beaten in a quarter final by the favourites for the event!

So, yes, we really are competing at the highest level.

How you describe our record as appalling in latter stages is beyond me!

Okay.

2018 in Russia, we finished second in a group including a decent Belgium side, Panama and Tunisia. Belgium, the only decent team in that group, beat us. We then scraped past Colombia on penalties, beat Sweden, and lost to Croatia. So, the only two half decent teams we came up against beat us. I don’t call that competing at the highest level.

The Euros in 2021, with home advantage, we edged through a group including Croatia, the Czech Republic and Scotland. Two 1-0 wins and a 0-0 draw with Scotland during a group campaign which was very nearly beyond us. In the knockout rounds we got royally carried away after beating a Germany side which was probably the worst I have seen in my lifetime and then, having beaten Ukraine and Denmark, we bottled it against Italy in the final.

Moving on to the last World Cup we then had a breeze of a group including USA, Iran and Wales, and yet still needed to win the last game to be sure of a place in the knockouts, as we could only draw with the USA. Having beaten Senegal, we then lost as soon as we met a decent side, France.

Surely you can see the pattern! In 2018 we lose against the only two half decent teams we played against, when most observers argued we could not have had an easier route to the final.

In 2021, having reached a final with home advantage and gone 1-0 up we absolutely bottled it against an Italian side which, again, was probably the sternest test we faced. Forget Germany that year, they were woeful.

And then in the last World Cup once again, as soon as we met a decent side we came unstuck.

So I would argue that my assessment that we do not compete at the highest level is actually pretty fair. In the latter stages of the last three tournaments, as soon as England have faced a team you could argue was in the higher echelons of the game at that time, or maybe even not that good, we have lost.

That’s not being competitive. Quite the opposite.

 

[GB72]

There can be an endless debate about whether England would be a better team if we played to our arguable strength and focused more on our skill going forward. It could be that this is simply not the case, who knows.

What I do know is that we have 2 friendlies coming up. Maybe in one or both, change it up and see how we perform with only one holding midfielder and more focus on our attacking skills. See what happens.

 

[PaulMdj]

Okay.

2018 in Russia, we finished second in a group including a decent Belgium side, Panama and Tunisia. Belgium, the only decent team in that group, beat us. We then scraped past Colombia on penalties, beat Sweden, and lost to Croatia. So, the only two half decent teams we came up against beat us. I don’t call that competing at the highest level.

The Euros in 2021, with home advantage, we edged through a group including Croatia, the Czech Republic and Scotland. Two 1-0 wins and a 0-0 draw with Scotland during a group campaign which was very nearly beyond us. In the knockout rounds we got royally carried away after beating a Germany side which was probably the worst I have seen in my lifetime and then, having beaten Ukraine and Denmark, we bottled it against Italy in the final.

Moving on to the last World Cup we then had a breeze of a group including USA, Iran and Wales, and yet still needed to win the last game to be sure of a place in the knockouts. Having beaten Senegal, we then lost as soon as we met a decent side, France.

Surely you can see the pattern! In 2018 we lose against the only two half decent teams we played against, when most observers argued we could not have had an easier route to the final.

In 2021, having reached a final with home advantage and gone 1-0 up we absolutely bottled it against an Italian side which, again, was probably the sternest test we faced. Forget Germany that year, they were woeful.

And then in the last World Cup once again, as soon as we met a decent side we came unstuck.

So I would argue that my assessment that we do not compete at the highest level is actually pretty fair. In the latter stages of the last three tournaments, as soon as England have faced a team you could argue was in the higher echelons of the game at that time, or maybe even not that good, we have lost.

That’s not being competitive. Quite the opposite.

I guess Southgate must be luckiest man alive then! It seems everything he’s ever done is because other teams are easy or going through bad times or got out the wrong side of the bed!

I look forward to the future England manager that wins every game 3 or 4 nil playing all the top teams en route to winning every comp.

 

[Tashyboy]

What I don’t understand re the FA, they have got it 100% correct in choosing the women’s manager. And 100% wrong in choosing the men’s manager.

 

[Reemul]

I guess Southgate must be luckiest man alive then! It seems everything he’s ever done is because other teams are easy or going through bad times or got out the wrong side of the bed!

I look forward to the future England manager that wins every game 3 or 4 nil playing all the top teams en route to winning every comp.

I have not idea what you are saying or seeing but it's not the same as us. I am pleased you are happy and don't think we could do better, the rest of us are not and you need to make better arguments for you point of view.Everyone else is posting details and points to support GS being useless and you just say no he is not.

Blind Faith really helps no one, look at Belgium adn Bobby brown shoes, as an Everton supporter I would have bet my life that Belgium would screw up and they did. To win stuff you need the right man and GS is not it, based on previous results.