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The Footie Thread

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Billysboots said:
The whole point, surely, is that England do not win under him. Okay, they stroll through qualifying campaigns, but they have been doing that pretty consistently throughout my lifetime, bar one or two notable exceptions.

But when it’s time to raise their game and win tournaments, England under Southgate are incapable of taking that step up. Sorry, but that is down to the manager’s conservatism.

It’s a while ago now, but I seem to recall he started the final of the Euros, at home and against a bang average Italy side, with no fewer than SEVEN defensive players in front of Pickford.

I agree going completely on the front foot is perhaps not the best approach either, but in key games England do not come close to grasping the initiative. That despite almost every pundit and watching fan seemingly agreeing that we play far better football when the young talent is allowed to express itself.

I’ve said it times, but I groaned out loud when Luke Shaw put England ahead in that final after three minutes. Because from that moment on, despite Italy being there for the taking, we just retreated deeper and deeper into our own half to the point the game was being played in our defensive third.

That had to be one of the most frustrating games I have ever seen England play. Because that side, if it had been allowed to, was more than good enough to have won it with ease.
Click to expand...
Once we again though, no credit is given to Southgate to reaching these latter stages, all the time it’s excuses about easy sides of the draws etc etc.

Look at the team Italy beat in the Final and compare it to the sides that failed,

Euro 96 - Semi Final

Seaman
Southgate
Adams
Pearce
McManaman
Ince
Platt
Gascoigne
Anderton
Sheringham
Shearer

Euro 21

Pickford
Stones
Walker
Maguire
Trippier
Philips
Rice
Shaw
Sterling
Mount
Kane

Which is the stronger team? How many of the Euro 21 Final Team would actually get in to 96 Team?

Average age against Italy was under 24, maybe Southgate is getting dome things right, ie, age, more players making their debut.

As said, Southgate is not my choice, but at times I think we English fans are overly critical and have over exaggerated expectations.
 
Swango1980 said:
His record speaks for itself? He hasn't won anything, managing a team that most think should be well capable of winning things.

Sure, England have had good sides before, including the Golden Generation. But, two responses to that:

  • The performances of the Golden Generation was deemed an absolute failure by most. Huge criticism of the managers at the time. So, just because Southgate might have lead them to similar rounds in tournaments, or a round or so further, does not suddenly put a positive spin on his record. We are basically comparing him to failed England managers and teams.
  • The opposition England had in those older days were incredible. France, Brazil, Italy, Argentina, Holland, Germany, etc had some of the finest players in generations playing for them. These players mainly played outside of England in the best leagues at the time, and English players rarely competed with them, except for the toughest of fixtures in Europe. There was an aura about them. I genuinely do not see the other big nations having anywhere near as strong players as they once had. Sure, France have Mbappe and there will be a few other big players about. But, the English players are now pretty much playing for the biggest clubs in the World. They are not suddenly going to face a team made up of Zidane, Desailly, Lizarazu, Petit, Vieira, Djorkaeff, Blanc and Thuram. Or Buffon, Maldini, Cannavaro, Nesta, Albertini, Del Pierro, Baggio, Inzaghi, Vieri, etc.
I don't think fans would mind as much if England went out, but they went out having a right go. Ultimately, luck will always play its part, and even great teams can fail. I remember England went out in the semis at Euro 96. It was disappointing, but I felt England were really really positive after the boring opening game against Switzerland, and in the semi versus Germany, England were so unlucky. If only Gazza had eaten one less pie, I think he'd have got his foot on that cross.
Click to expand...
Yes his record does speak for itself, he is the 2nd most succesful England Manager after Sir Alf.

Surely we can only compare him to those before him? And, again his record is positive.🤷‍♂️

You are looking at those players through rose tinted glasses, just like we look at previous England players.

Finally, you’re happy to make excuses for Euro 96? Are though no excuses for the Italy game? Should Italy have been down to men…
 
Liverpool have Atlanta

West ham get bayern leverkusen

Tough draw but I'm glad we avoided the scousers , we can only now meet them in the final (not saying either will get there, we have a tough draw)
 
PaulMdj said:
Once we again though, no credit is given to Southgate to reaching these latter stages, all the time it’s excuses about easy sides of the draws etc etc.

Look at the team Italy beat in the Final and compare it to the sides that failed,

Euro 96 - Semi Final

Seaman
Southgate
Adams
Pearce
McManaman
Ince
Platt
Gascoigne
Anderton
Sheringham
Shearer

Euro 21

Pickford
Stones
Walker
Maguire
Trippier
Philips
Rice
Shaw
Sterling
Mount
Kane

Which is the stronger team? How many of the Euro 21 Final Team would actually get in to 96 Team?

Average age against Italy was under 24, maybe Southgate is getting dome things right, ie, age, more players making their debut.

As said, Southgate is not my choice, but at times I think we English fans are overly critical and have over exaggerated expectations.
Click to expand...

Difficult to compare two sides 25 years apart!
 
Billysboots said:
Difficult to compare two sides 25 years apart!
Click to expand...
The point being, we may be over egging the current squad, very few players in the current England 11 would be everybodies choice, Pickford is a perfect example.

Are we really that good because of (in my opinion) we really only have 3-4 World Class players, a few others may become that, but not yet.
 
PaulMdj said:
The point being, we may be over egging the current squad, very few players in the current England 11 would be everybodies choice, Pickford is a perfect example.

Are we really that good because of (in my opinion) we really only have 3-4 World Class players, a few others may become that, but not yet.
Click to expand...

But as a collective with the likes of Foden, Kane, Saka, Bellingham and co we’ve got a group who should be competing at the highest level. We should certainly be far more proactive than we are.
 
PaulMdj said:
The point being, we may be over egging the current squad, very few players in the current England 11 would be everybodies choice, Pickford is a perfect example.

Are we really that good because of (in my opinion) we really only have 3-4 World Class players, a few others may become that, but not yet.
Click to expand...

My argument would be that we have a world class attack and a more suspect defence but we focus on protecting that defence over taking advantage of the attaching talents that we have. We play not to lose rather than play to win.
 
England may not have 11 world class players but I would argue no international team does right now. None of the recent tournaments have been classics, contained outstanding teams. There have been some great games, decent teams but no team recently will be remembered in history. We had / have as many world class players as any other country, more than most. The chance has been there, we haven't taken it.
 
PaulMdj said:
Yes his record does speak for itself, he is the 2nd most succesful England Manager after Sir Alf.

Surely we can only compare him to those before him? And, again his record is positive.🤷‍♂️

You are looking at those players through rose tinted glasses, just like we look at previous England players.

Finally, you’re happy to make excuses for Euro 96? Are though no excuses for the Italy game? Should Italy have been down to men…
Click to expand...
I'm looking at players like Zidane and Maldini through rose tinted glasses? I thought they were pretty decent, but welcome to debate that if you wish. Then again, if we reverse that, are you looking at Anderton, Ince, Platt, McManaman through rose tinted glasses?

The excuses for Euro 96 were largely down to luck, out of the managers control. I'm not sure England were unlucky when they lost to Wembley to Italy. I think they bottled it, in a game that should have been there for the taking. It was just bad luck they had a manager that couldn't get the players to go out and play to win it, instead he desperately tried not to lose, which piled the pressure on.
 
You could argue that, in the past as well, unadventurous football was what the players were used to and so that was a logical way to play at international level. Now you have a team of players used to Pep, Klopp, Arteta etc, players who are used to playing in a faster paced, more technical and adventurous way. To bring them back to playing not to lose is like owning a sports car and never taking it past 3rd gear.
 
GB72 said:
You could argue that, in the past as well, unadventurous football was what the players were used to and so that was a logical way to play at international level. Now you have a team of players used to Pep, Klopp, Arteta etc, players who are used to playing in a faster paced, more technical and adventurous way. To bring them back to playing not to lose is like owning a sports car and never taking it past 3rd gear.
Click to expand...
Sadly that is 3 or 4 of a first 11.
 
Swango1980 said:
I'm looking at players like Zidane and Maldini through rose tinted glasses? I thought they were pretty decent, but welcome to debate that if you wish. Then again, if we reverse that, are you looking at Anderton, Ince, Platt, McManaman through rose tinted glasses?

The excuses for Euro 96 were largely down to luck, out of the managers control. I'm not sure England were unlucky when they lost to Wembley to Italy. I think they bottled it, in a game that should have been there for the taking. It was just bad luck they had a manager that couldn't get the players to go out and play to win it, instead he desperately tried not to lose, which piled the pressure on.
Click to expand...
You picked out 2 players from the whole list.

We had World Class players then and World Class players now, it doesn’t give us the right to win anything.
 
Billysboots said:
But as a collective with the likes of Foden, Kane, Saka, Bellingham and co we’ve got a group who should be competing at the highest level. We should certainly be far more proactive than we are.
Click to expand...
But we arecompeting at the highest level, finals and semi-final are not bad if, as Lord T says, there are no oustanding teams and a few decent teams then he’s done ok.
 
AmandaJR said:
A thought just crossed my mind. Bear with though as my Wordle effort today shows my brain is malfunctioning a bit...

Does Gareth pick Henderson as he sees him as a player in his mould? Low on skill, big on effort?!
Click to expand...
If Henderson is there just to gee up the squad that means the management are not very good at it.

We need to blood the boys of the future ,not waste a place on a older player imo.
 
clubchamp98 said:
If Henderson is there just to gee up the squad that means the management are not very good at it.

We need to blood the boys of the future ,not waste a place on a older player imo.
Click to expand...

If he is there just to fee up the squad, give him a job on the management team and do not waste a spot in the squad.
 
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