The Footie Thread

[Swango1980]

When you look at how Spurs have recovered so quickly from the Mourinho and Conte eras, Utd will not be far behind if you have the right set up. Get the right manager, a couple of signings and whilst you wont be winning the league, you will be back amongst the top 4 quite quickly. I'm not seeing anything in ETH that suggests he is the right man, you need to find your own Ange

Yet, in his first season, he came 3rd. He won the League Cup. He got to the final of the FA Cup. Many considered them favourites for the Europa League based on how they were playing, until a crazy 20 minutes or so. We were solid at the back, apart from a few games. Martinez had a great season, and pundits like Carragher had to admit they got their initial opinion wrong on him. Many felt Casemiro was up there as one of the best signings of the season. Maybe not the best player, but certainly a player than made a huge positive difference to the club they went to. There were still issues that had to be dealt with last season (e.g. Ronaldo, Greenwood, Maguire), and I'm sure there were other issues behind the scenes rumbling on (like Sancho).

I think people have extremely short memories. Probably why some cry out for managers to be sacked as soon as a club hits a barrier and goes through a bad spell. Utd are not getting Pepe or Klopp. I don't see another manager out there that would definitely be an upgrade. We saw Potter look completely lost at Chelsea. De Zerbi could come to Utd and be completely out of his depth. Many like Pochettino (including me), yet we see how he has struggled at Chelsea so far. Ange has done OK at Spurs so far, although I don't think they've blown the PL away. We'll see how he can maintain Spurs level over the longer term.

Utd get rid of Ten Hag, I've zero faith they'd get in a manager who would be an upgrade. I don't think they'd suddenly turn into a side that would easily compete for the PL title, or even easily compete for top 4. And, if Ten Hag was sacked, unlike Ole Gunnar Solskjaer, I'd be pretty confident that he'd have no shortage of offers to manage at other good clubs.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Yet, in his first season, he came 3rd. He won the League Cup. He got to the final of the FA Cup. Many considered them favourites for the Europa League based on how they were playing, until a crazy 20 minutes or so. We were solid at the back, apart from a few games. Martinez had a great season, and pundits like Carragher had to admit they got their initial opinion wrong on him. Many felt Casemiro was up there as one of the best signings of the season. Maybe not the best player, but certainly a player than made a huge positive difference to the club they went to. There were still issues that had to be dealt with last season (e.g. Ronaldo, Greenwood, Maguire), and I'm sure there were other issues behind the scenes rumbling on (like Sancho).

I think people have extremely short memories. Probably why some cry out for managers to be sacked as soon as a club hits a barrier and goes through a bad spell. Utd are not getting Pepe or Klopp. I don't see another manager out there that would definitely be an upgrade. We saw Potter look completely lost at Chelsea. De Zerbi could come to Utd and be completely out of his depth. Many like Pochettino (including me), yet we see how he has struggled at Chelsea so far. Ange has done OK at Spurs so far, although I don't think they've blown the PL away. We'll see how he can maintain Spurs level over the longer term.

Utd get rid of Ten Hag, I've zero faith they'd get in a manager who would be an upgrade. I don't think they'd suddenly turn into a side that would easily compete for the PL title, or even easily compete for top 4. And, if Ten Hag was sacked, unlike Ole Gunnar Solskjaer, I'd be pretty confident that he'd have no shortage of offers to manage at other good clubs.

If we go back to posts made by many previous posters, many pundits etc. What style of play does ETH have for Utd? If you look at other teams, they have injuries, they lose key players, but you still understand what the manager wants. Does anyone know how ETH wants Utd to play? If he has not got that over in 18 months, that isn't great.

You got a point yesterday, so it sounds honours even. Except, Spurs looked so much better and I know who I would rather watch. You have the ability to grab wins, grab points but boy you are ugly doing it. There can not be much enjoyment being a Utd fan watching that. That can't be what you want.

 

[Swango1980]

Which is something that Redknapp was saying ( the guys talks nonsense most of the time ) - Spurs in 4 months got an identity , a style of play and the right players - ETH is 18 months into that and still nowhere near seeing what style of play he wants or having some sort of identity- the better managers come in and put their style and identity into a club , and not just the likes of Klopp and Pepe but Emery , De Zerbi , even the likes if O Neill and Iraola have come in and put their stamp on things using the players with their disposal

I suspect ask any Man Utd fan and they wouldn’t even know what ETH style is , what is there identity, what is he trying to do -

I suspect ETH style is very different to what we see. I doubt his style is to play really bad football, struggle to get possession and when we do get it, give it away cheaply. But, to understand what he is trying to do, or where he is trying to get to, you'd need to speak to him privately.

If I was to guess, he wants to play high tempo, good possession football. But, he understands that if he tries to play that way, there are too many players in the side that simply cannot play that way. They are not mentally good enough in and out of possession, and they switch off too much. I think he might have tried to get them to play that way at times, and they've been absolutely battered. I think he realises that no club would give him the time to get battered every week, so that maybe in a few months time the current players might actually start to be able to play the way he wants. So I suspect he has had to default to more counter attacking football, hoping the wingers can at least create in moments whilst hoping to absorb the opposition attacks.

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe if Pep came to manage the side, suddenly we'd see Utd having 70% possession in most games, and players all over the pitch scoring for fun. Or if Klopp came in, have the players run tirelessly and intelligently, so that the opponents can never build up many good attacking plays. But, I doubt it. Perhaps a temporary lift, but I just think too many of the players are very much inferior to what other clubs have

 

[Swango1980]

If we go back to posts made by many previous posters, many pundits etc. What style of play does ETH have for Utd? If you look at other teams, they have injuries, they lose key players, but you still understand what the manager wants. Does anyone know how ETH wants Utd to play? If he has not got that over in 18 months, that isn't great.

You got a point yesterday, so it sounds honours even. Except, Spurs looked so much better and I know who I would rather watch. You have the ability to grab wins, grab points but boy you are ugly doing it. There can not be much enjoyment being a Utd fan watching that. That can't be what you want.

100% correct. And I'd be happy to speak for Ten Hag and say it isn't what he wants either.

The question is, SHOULD he be getting what he wants with the tools at his disposal? On one hand, I hear many people criticise the Utd squad and the Ownership in general. Constantly tell us the players are not good enough, while praising players from other clubs. And, in many respects, I agree. I'm not saying every Utd player is rubbish, but there are a large number that are nowhere near the level you'd want if you wanted to be one of the best clubs. Especially when so many can't stay fit, or become unavailable for other reasons. So, I just think it is rich when those comments are made by some, and then in the next breath they think Ten Hag should be sacked because he isn't playing good attacking football and competing easily in the Top 4.

It is like when my 18 handicapper mate with a 90mph club head speed went out and bought a driver with a Tour Stiff shaft. He was awful with it, so went to a pro for lessons. The pro immediately told him that his swing was not suited to the club he was using. My mate said that he was the pro, it was his job to teach him how to use it. Well, my mate never did manage to learn how to drive the ball 350+ yards, and was generally pretty rubbish with it. However, I wouldn't blame the pro that gave him lessons for that. It was the impossible job. I feel a bit like that with Ten Hag.

 

[Billysboots]

A point at OT is never going to be a bad result.

For which side?

 

[Tashyboy]

I suspect ETH style is very different to what we see. I doubt his style is to play really bad football, struggle to get possession and when we do get it, give it away cheaply. But, to understand what he is trying to do, or where he is trying to get to, you'd need to speak to him privately.

If I was to guess, he wants to play high tempo, good possession football. But, he understands that if he tries to play that way, there are too many players in the side that simply cannot play that way. They are not mentally good enough in and out of possession, and they switch off too much. I think he might have tried to get them to play that way at times, and they've been absolutely battered. I think he realises that no club would give him the time to get battered every week, so that maybe in a few months time the current players might actually start to be able to play the way he wants. So I suspect he has had to default to more counter attacking football, hoping the wingers can at least create in moments whilst hoping to absorb the opposition attacks.

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe if Pep came to manage the side, suddenly we'd see Utd having 70% possession in most games, and players all over the pitch scoring for fun. Or if Klopp came in, have the players run tirelessly and intelligently, so that the opponents can never build up many good attacking plays. But, I doubt it. Perhaps a temporary lift, but I just think too many of the players are very much inferior to what other clubs have

Re Utd. Sometimes I watch them and am not amazed at what they do when they have the ball. But what they don’t do when they don’t have the ball. They just look to easy to play against. I always find it looks easier to set up a defensive team Than attacking, yet Utd do not look as good when defensively set up than other teams, and I don’t just mean the back four. The protection of the back four, and closing down players look mish mash.

 

[Billysboots]

Re Utd. Sometimes I watch them and am not amazed at what they do when they have the ball. But what they don’t do when they don’t have the ball. They just look to easy to play against. I always find it looks easier to set up a defensive team Than attacking, yet Utd do not look as good when defensively set up than other teams, and I don’t just mean the back four. The protection of the back four, and closing down players look mish mash.

The second Spurs goal yesterday was far too similar for my liking to both Forest goals a couple of weeks ago - caused by the abject failure of United’s midfield to track runners. I called the goal yesterday as soon as I saw the space afforded to Bentancur before he’d even received the ball.

We don’t seem capable of learning, which is a real concern.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

100% correct. And I'd be happy to speak for Ten Hag and say it isn't what he wants either.

The question is, SHOULD he be getting what he wants with the tools at his disposal? On one hand, I hear many people criticise the Utd squad and the Ownership in general. Constantly tell us the players are not good enough, while praising players from other clubs. And, in many respects, I agree. I'm not saying every Utd player is rubbish, but there are a large number that are nowhere near the level you'd want if you wanted to be one of the best clubs. Especially when so many can't stay fit, or become unavailable for other reasons. So, I just think it is rich when those comments are made by some, and then in the next breath they think Ten Hag should be sacked because he isn't playing good attacking football and competing easily in the Top 4.

It is like when my 18 handicapper mate with a 90mph club head speed went out and bought a driver with a Tour Stiff shaft. He was awful with it, so went to a pro for lessons. The pro immediately told him that his swing was not suited to the club he was using. My mate said that he was the pro, it was his job to teach him how to use it. Well, my mate never did manage to learn how to drive the ball 350+ yards, and was generally pretty rubbish with it. However, I wouldn't blame the pro that gave him lessons for that. It was the impossible job. I feel a bit like that with Ten Hag.

ETH has brought in 16 players at a cost of £400mil - if he can’t get a tune out of the players he bought in what can he do

Most of the tools at his disposal have come in under him

If he was in his first season then you could point to his players needing time to get a style formulated but it’s 18 months , if they can’t get it sorted now then how much longer does he need and how many more signings will it take

Last season it’s potentially looking like a bit of a lucky one with other teams playing poorly to allow Utd to get into the top 4 - has it masked that he just isn’t good enough

 

[Swango1980]

ETH has brought in 16 players at a cost of £400mil - if he can’t get a tune out of the players he bought in what can he do

Most of the tools at his disposal have come in under him

If he was in his first season then you could point to his players needing time to get a style formulated but it’s 18 months , if they can’t get it sorted now then how much longer does he need and how many more signings will it take

Last season it’s potentially looking like a bit of a lucky one with other teams playing poorly to allow Utd to get into the top 4 - has it masked that he just isn’t good enough

Progress isn't linear. I suspect most people felt he managed to over achieve last year. It's too easy to say that other teams were poor, because that is the case every season. There are probably 7 or 8 clubs who have ambitions to get into Top 4, and so it is inevitable that a few of those could have a disappointing season.

After 21 games last season, Liverpool where 7th with 33 points (Utd currently have 32 points). How many Liverpool players had Klopp brought in by that point? Why was he not getting a tune out of them? Why were they 20 points behind Arsenal? Should Klopp have been sacked? Or was it worth sticking with him, and believing he has it in him to turn it around?

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Progress isn't linear. I suspect most people felt he managed to over achieve last year. It's too easy to say that other teams were poor, because that is the case every season. There are probably 7 or 8 clubs who have ambitions to get into Top 4, and so it is inevitable that a few of those could have a disappointing season.

After 21 games last season, Liverpool where 7th with 33 points (Utd currently have 32 points). How many Liverpool players had Klopp brought in by that point? Why was he not getting a tune out of them? Why were they 20 points behind Arsenal? Should Klopp have been sacked? Or was it worth sticking with him, and believing he has it in him to turn it around?

It’s it really a comparison to Klopp and last season where a team was coming to the end of its cycle and needed a refresh - we were poor last season due to a number of factors - he has already proven himself a number of teams so why would he be sacked after 1 poor season. ETH right now hasn’t proven anything - if you want to use Klopp as a barometer

First season ( after taking over halfway ) - two finals
2nd - top 4
3rd CL final
4th Win CL
5th Win league


Is that not showing improvement each season which is what you would expect

Man Utd improved in their first season under ETH but even OGS came second in one season -ETH needed to build on last season , but has gone backwards after a good start , just like OGS went backwards after a good season, teams needed to be improving and competing every single season or questions will be asked

ETH needs to find a way to get things better this season even if it’s just getting a better structure or style on the pitch. Or at the end of the season he will be out

 

[Bdill93]

Unai Emery transformed relegation fodder to 7th place finishers and now top 5 contenders within 12 months....

Great managers can do great work with all the right resources.

 

[Swango1980]

It’s it really a comparison to Klopp and last season where a team was coming to the end of its cycle and needed a refresh - we were poor last season due to a number of factors - he has already proven himself a number of teams so why would he be sacked after 1 poor season. ETH right now hasn’t proven anything - if you want to use Klopp as a barometer

First season ( after taking over halfway ) - two finals
2nd - top 4
3rd CL final
4th Win CL
5th Win league


Is that not showing improvement each season which is what you would expect

Man Utd improved in their first season under ETH but even OGS came second in one season -ETH needed to build on last season , but has gone backwards after a good start , just like OGS went backwards after a good season, teams needed to be improving and competing every single season or questions will be asked

ETH needs to find a way to get things better this season even if it’s just getting a better structure or style on the pitch. Or at the end of the season he will be out

So, how many seasons does a manager have to show "improvement" until you allow them to have a bad season? At what point would you be willing to consider that there could be several massive issues within a club that are pretty much out of the managers hands?

I'll look back at Man Utd under Sir Alex. His first league finishes were 11th, 2nd, 12th, 13th. Thank God nobody decided to sack him because he hadn't managed to get a tune out of his players. ETH hasn't proven anything? What on earth do you want? How many managers, that are available, have a great record at the top clubs in Europe? Not many, and they have to start somewhere. ETH has a much much better CV than Ole. He did well at Ajax and did well before then. He came to Utd and achieved much more than 95% of people thought they could do.

If ETH hasn't proven a thing, then I'd say the same about Postecoglou. I'm sure he has enjoyed good times at teams I've never heard of or ever watched, and did well at Celtic in a league which is pretty much a one horse race unless Rangers can get their act together. Yet he is touted as the next great thing because Spurs are sitting 5th in the table. But then perhaps managers maybe need more of a chance than one season. If Utd had played the way they are now, but all last season as well, then I would tend to agree with you. There would be no signs that ETH has it in him. But, my personal opinion is that he has shown enough to still be given the chance to turn things around, along with good management above him.

 

[Swango1980]

Unai Emery transformed relegation fodder to 7th place finishers and now top 5 contenders within 12 months....

Great managers can do great work with all the right resources.

Agreed

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Agreed

£400m is pretty good on the resources front to be fair.

I don't think people are expecting Utd to be winning the league at this point, not even be top 4. However, when you look at Villa, Spurs, Newcastle, Brighton you can see a style of play, a direction of travel. They may not always get the results but you can see what each of those managers is looking for from their teams. That is the big miss at Utd at the moment.

I hope you guys keep ETH. I'm still disappointed Ole left

On the upside for utd, at least you are not going to get stuffed by FFP in the near future

 

[Deleted member 15344]

So, how many seasons does a manager have to show "improvement" until you allow them to have a bad season? At what point would you be willing to consider that there could be several massive issues within a club that are pretty much out of the managers hands?

Modern football has changed , especially at big clubs - Man Utd have had over decade now of would many would see as a lot of failures. It’s the same as what Liverpool went through in the 90’s - you would expect to see improvement every season when starting from a low base and have significantly better resources available

I'll look back at Man Utd under Sir Alex. His first league finishes were 11th, 2nd, 12th, 13th. Thank God nobody decided to sack him because he hadn't managed to get a tune out of his players. ETH hasn't proven anything? What on earth do you want? How many managers, that are available, have a great record at the top clubs in Europe? Not many, and they have to start somewhere. ETH has a much much better CV than Ole. He did well at Ajax and did well before then. He came to Utd and achieved much more than 95% of people thought they could do.

And Ferguson was very close to being fired - winning a cup saved him , but the world has changed , when Ferguson was around they had spent 20 years without a title chasing other teams - that’s different now , Man Utd and their fans expect better

It’s not a crime to suggest that ETH just isn’t good enough to manage the club and the expectations that come with being Man Utd manager

It shouldn’t be a club where a manager “has to start somewhere”

If ETH hasn't proven a thing, then I'd say the same about Postecoglou. I'm sure he has enjoyed good times at teams I've never heard of or ever watched, and did well at Celtic in a league which is pretty much a one horse race unless Rangers can get their act together. Yet he is touted as the next great thing because Spurs are sitting 5th in the table. But then perhaps managers maybe need more of a chance than one season. If Utd had played the way they are now, but all last season as well, then I would tend to agree with you. There would be no signs that ETH has it in him. But, my personal opinion is that he has shown enough to still be given the chance to turn things around, along with good management above him.

Ange Postecoglou is new into the Prem and is starting from a low level but even then he is at the very least showing a style of play and a pattern of how he wants his teams to work

But then Spurs aren’t Man Utd - the expectations are hugely different

Yes there are issues above Man Utd when it comes to the football side and recruitment but I also think even if that was better then the manager isn’t good enough for the club and what they expect

It’s not just about the results - it’s about the manner of the way the team plays and how they all look lost out there with not a clue what’s going on

Can’t keep pointing about when it looks like the team have zero idea on what their style is

 

[Swango1980]

£400m is pretty good on the resources front to be fair.

I don't think people are expecting Utd to be winning the league at this point, not even be top 4. However, when you look at Villa, Spurs, Newcastle, Brighton you can see a style of play, a direction of travel. They may not always get the results but you can see what each of those managers is looking for from their teams. That is the big miss at Utd at the moment.

I hope you guys keep ETH. I'm still disappointed Ole left

I think everyone agrees that the money spent by Utd, against the type of players we've brought in, has been horrific for Utd for a long time. So, should we just keep sacking managers for the failure of these players to perform?

Under Moyes we brought in Fellaini.

Under Van Gaal we brought in Di Maria, Rojo, Blind, Falcao, Martial, Schneiderlin, Depay, Darmian and Schweinsteiger.

Under Mourinho we brought in Pogba, Mkhitaryan, Bailly, Lukaku, Matic, Lindelof, Sanchez and Fred

Under Ole we brought in Maguire, Wan Bissaka, Bruno, James, Sancho, Varane and Ronaldo.

Under Ten Hag we brought in Casemiro, Martinez, Antony, Malacia (squad player), Eriksen (free), Hojlund, Mount, Onana, Amrabat (loan) and Evans. Antony has been the biggest disappointment so far. Onana hasn't been impressive (and poor in Champions League), although it isn't the first time Utd have had keepers come into the 1st team and been poor. Mount has simply never got going due to injury. Yet the likes of Casemiro and Martinez where our best players last season along with Rashford, but been injured virtually all this season. Hojlund looks good, but gets next to no service. There are a lot of players that were at the club before Ten Hag that make up to eleven on the pitch, and I think it is beyond quite a few of them to play the way Ten Hag wants anyway.

 

[Swango1980]

Modern football has changed , especially at big clubs - Man Utd have had over decade now of would many would see as a lot of failures. It’s the same as what Liverpool went through in the 90’s - you would expect to see improvement every season when starting from a low base and have significantly better resources available

And Ferguson was very close to being fired - winning a cup saved him , but the world has changed , when Ferguson was around they had spent 20 years without a title chasing other teams - that’s different now , Man Utd and their fans expect better

It’s not a crime to suggest that ETH just isn’t good enough to manage the club and the expectations that come with being Man Utd manager

It shouldn’t be a club where a manager “has to start somewhere”

Ange Postecoglou is new into the Prem and is starting from a low level but even then he is at the very least showing a style of play and a pattern of how he wants his teams to work

But then Spurs aren’t Man Utd - the expectations are hugely different

Yes there are issues above Man Utd when it comes to the football side and recruitment but I also think even if that was better then the manager isn’t good enough for the club and what they expect

It’s not just about the results - it’s about the manner of the way the team plays and how they all look lost out there with not a clue what’s going on

Can’t keep pointing about when it looks like the team have zero idea on what their style is

All of this is exactly why is becomes the impossible job for any manager at Utd at the moment

The squad is simply not good enough when compared to the other best teams. BUT, people still expect the manager to have them play good football AND compete for the Champions League spots. If finishing in the Top 4 or 5 was not considered essential to Man Utd and their fans, then Ten Hag would probably have the luxury of trying to implement a pleasing style of football, knowing that a few of the players will struggle for quite some time and it would be playing away from their own strengths. Perhaps he could languish around mid table like Brighton, Wolves, Bournemouth, etc but everyone would compliment him for playing some nice football. So, instead he is probably taking a hybrid approach, in that he wants players to get better in possession, but to get results in the short term knows that he'd probably have to try and play more directly with the likes of Rashford.

If Utd were still playing rubbish football after 3 or 4 seasons, then fair enough. For me that would be more than enough time and time for a change. But given we are judging him on half a season performances, after a good first season, I think it is way too early to say his days are numbered. Although, given how football works, I know many clubs will sack a manager after 3 or 4 bad results so I know anything is possible

 

[Deleted member 15344]

All of this is exactly why is becomes the impossible job for any manager at Utd at the moment

The squad is simply not good enough when compared to the other best teams. BUT, people still expect the manager to have them play good football AND compete for the Champions League spots. If finishing in the Top 4 or 5 was not considered essential to Man Utd and their fans, then Ten Hag would probably have the luxury of trying to implement a pleasing style of football, knowing that a few of the players will struggle for quite some time and it would be playing away from their own strengths. Perhaps he could languish around mid table like Brighton, Wolves, Bournemouth, etc but everyone would compliment him for playing some nice football. So, instead he is probably taking a hybrid approach, in that he wants players to get better in possession, but to get results in the short term knows that he'd probably have to try and play more directly with the likes of Rashford.

If Utd were still playing rubbish football after 3 or 4 seasons, then fair enough. For me that would be more than enough time and time for a change. But given we are judging him on half a season performances, after a good first season, I think it is way too early to say his days are numbered. Although, given how football works, I know many clubs will sack a manager after 3 or 4 bad results so I know anything is possible

How can the squad be good enough last season to be in the top 4 then have £170mil spent on it to then go backwards

The very least you would expect the manager to do is to stay on a level field and stay in the top 4

Surely improvement on last season is the bare minimum and would at least show steps forward even if it’s consolidating a CL space to enable the club to keep building

The team has gone backwards - even if there are injury issues the team could at least show some sort of shape and style and that’s down to the manager

 

[Swango1980]

How can the squad be good enough last season to be in the top 4 then have £170mil spent on it to then go backwards

The very least you would expect the manager to do is to stay on a level field and stay in the top 4

Surely improvement on last season is the bare minimum and would at least show steps forward even if it’s consolidating a CL space to enable the club to keep building

The team has gone backwards - even if there are injury issues the team could at least show some sort of shape and style and that’s down to the manager

Appearances Last Season compared to this season

Fred, last season 35/38, this season 0/21
Shaw, last season 31/38, this season 8/21
Casemiro, last season 28/38, this season 8/21
Martinez, last season 27/38, this season 6/21
Sancho, last season 26/38, this season 3/21
Varane, last season 24/38, this season 12/21

It is not like ETH has had the same players to pick from, and then enhanced in certain positions. Martinez and Casemiro were 2 of our most important players last season, and when Martinez was injured at end of the season it was a big blow. Shaw is hugely important as well, and I suspect a large part of Rashford's form was having Shaw on the same side of the pitch to support him. If the majority of the team were fit, I'd suspect ETH would look to play a very different style of football, and would be able to do so with some consistency. But with our most important players from last season unavailable, or bang out of form, then that is difficult.

Besides, on one hand you claim Man Utd were in a false position last season simply because other teams played badly, and on the other hand you suggest we should expect to at least maintain our form and rough standing from last year. What is it? If Utd were in a false position last year, then maybe 7th is our TRUE position based on clubs around us, and therefore maybe ETH is simply achieving a more realistic position this year.

 

[Captainron]

More FFP breaches for Everton and also Forest