Pin-seeker
Well-known member
Spot on.
You’ll get a player blatantly diving one week,then the week after they get legitimately fouled but don’t get the decision.
The player & their manager then hammer the ref
You’ll get a player blatantly diving one week,then the week after they get legitimately fouled but don’t get the decision.
The player & their manager then hammer the ref
clubchamp98
Journeyman Pro
Yes that’s correct.Spot on.
You’ll get a player blatantly diving one week,then the week after they get legitimately fouled but don’t get the decision.
The player & their manager then hammer the ref
But that started because they were not giving the legit ones in the first place.
22 cheats and a ref isn’t far off the mark!
Pin-seeker
Well-known member
Sorry but I’m not having that.
Golfmmad
Tour Winner
Can't agree Arsenal wanted it more.
Son in law watched the game and said possession was about 50-50 and nil nil at half time.
First goal was a lapse in concentration to give Jesus a free header. Second goal we lost the ball in midfield which allowed Havertz to run through and score, a well taken goal.
In the end Arsenal were the better team but to say they wanted it more is unfair to the Brighton players.
clubchamp98
Journeyman Pro
Why do you think they all started diving then.?
City fined £120k for surrounding/pressuring the ref in the game v Spurs. A financial fine is meaningless, at that level anyway. It should have been individual player bans, captain gets banned for failure to control etc.
This isn't a pop at city, it should apply to all teams in that situation. They have got away with it.
This isn't a pop at city, it should apply to all teams in that situation. They have got away with it.
Pin-seeker
Well-known member
To try & con the refs into giving them free kicks/pens.
clubchamp98
Journeyman Pro
That’s why they will never stop it.
Perfect chance to send a proper message and they have bottled it.
Only in football would that be tolerated.
Swango1980
Well-known member
Having thought about it, booking players for dissent is never going to truly stop it happening. It might stop extreme incidents, or limit them. But, how can we truly expect players to stop many of their actions of dissent, when they are fueled by instant emotion rather than based on any logic? How can we expect players to tone it down, when there are tens or thousands of their fans, and opposition fans surrounding them, hurling all sorts of abuse at the officials when something doesn't go their way. How can we expect players to stop this emotion when pundits will spend half their analysis telling us how incompetent officials are for making one or 2 big mistakes, but never giving any credit for the 95% of decisions they got right. Even look at the discussions on this thread. People will, on one hand, curse certain decisions and scream how incompetent the officials are, and that they shouldn't be in a job. Then a little later, the same people will say players should respect the referee.
A player might just be able to hold their emotions better than others, and simply stay as quiet as they can. That isn't respect though, that is simply being quiet and not getting into trouble.
I've always felt a far better way of dealing with it is humanizing officials. Let them speak to players, even better if the fans can not just see this, but hear what is being said. Listen to them talk to assistant referees and VAR. Understands their thought process. If they are going to start waving a card around, talk to the player each time to explain exactly why a card is being given. If for dissent, explain that and make it clear to players and fans exactly what is going on. If, while in conversation with the referee a player continues to be abusive or childish, despite a clear warning to calm down and stop the abuse, by all means give a second booking and red card. Ideally, we could hear all this live. But as a minimum, could officials release their match report a few days later. We are no longer guessing why some decisions were made, but we can actually see exactly why they were made (I'm assuming these reports are not released, I've never seen them anyway)
I'm not sure asking referees to simply wave around more yellow cards is actually going to help in the long run, and may actually result in more mistrust and anger towards officials. By the letter of the law, Nunez should have been sent off at weekend early in game. In reality, I don't think it should even get to that, and it ruins games of football (even if it would have made it better for my team). When he was initially booked for kicking the ball away (assuming that was the reason), the referee should have brought him over and talked to him. If the player was still wound up and acting overly emotional or sarcastic, the ref can continue to talk to him, calm him down, and warn him if he can't calm down, continues to be silly, he'll have no choice to get sent off. I think in 99% of cases, the player will calm down in 10-15 seconds and both the referee and the player will walk away on better terms.
That all being said, if the majority think that throwing around yellow cards for most episodes of heightened emotion is necessary, then do it. Do it absolutely all the time. If 4 or 5 players are getting sent off every game, keep doing it. Only if they do this for a prolonged period of time, will we know if it is making the game better or worse.
@Swango1980 do you ever watch rugby? Plenty of other sports I could have chosen but rugby is an obvious one. Big crowds, players knocking lumps out of each other. No one ever tries to abuse the ref, they know what would happen, but does it lessen the game for you? Do you miss the ref getting the hairdryer, the intimidation etc?
Players in other sports manage to control themselves, be professional, why make excuses for football?
Players in other sports manage to control themselves, be professional, why make excuses for football?
GB72
Money List Winner
I do not think that the aim is necessarily to do much at the top level of the game. It is at grass roots where the treatment of refs is a severe issue and so you need to instill behaviour at the top so as that approach passes down the levels, you need to see the players in the Premiership behaving if you are to have any hope of the players in the under 12 teams respecting the ref. The example as to start at the top.
RichA
Well-known member
The thing that irritates me most is the way that fouls on forwards is viewed.
If a forward puts the ball past a defender then deliberately runs into the defender's leg then it seems to be accepted that they have the right to go down.
I'd like to see football where they rule that the defender had a right to make the challenge and the forward could have easily avoided contact or had the strength of character to stay on their feet and get a shot in.
Football needs to ask itself why defenders hit the deck less often when forwards mistime tackles on them.
The simulation and looking to be fouled spoils football for me more than the petty dissent.
GB72
Money List Winner
Ah the good old 'he won a free kick' as if the free kick is an something to aim for in itself rather than being the unfortunate last resort following another player's rash actions.
Orikoru
Tour Winner
Sorry to ruin your day, Forest fans...
"Nottingham Forest are expected to sack Steve Cooper as manager later today
Nuno Espírito Santo is flying into the UK from his home in Portugal later today to begin formal talks about the possibility of taking over from Cooper"
"Nottingham Forest are expected to sack Steve Cooper as manager later today
Nuno Espírito Santo is flying into the UK from his home in Portugal later today to begin formal talks about the possibility of taking over from Cooper"
Aztecs27
Money List Winner
The worst part of all this - Oliver Glasner was keen to take the job....and we've given it to Nuno because his Agent is best mates with Marinakis, so has done him on a backhander to make sure his clients are kept happy.
Not the first time our recruitment has been dictated by Jorge Mendes. Awful.
The best 2 and a half years of my life supporting this club whilst Steve Cooper was here. I'll never forget it.
nickjdavis
Head Pro
Typical...a week before we play Forest and they get the advantage of "new manager bounce".
Swango1980
Well-known member
I don't watch a lot of rugby. However, what I do tend to see it referees seem to be great at communicating with players, and will take time to speak to them clearly. What's more, there are times the audience also gets to hear what the referee is saying.
However, it is also true to say that they are different sports. Both contact sports, but in very different ways. I also suspect different elements of society are attracted to rugby than football. In N Ireland at least, rugby was a sport that was never played when you go out with your mates. It was played at Grammar schools, and most of the fans were ex Grammar School type people. Football was more a sport for all classes, and played at High schools (wasn't even allowed to play football at my grammar school). I don't know if this is the same for most parts of the world with rugby, but if it was it could certainly explain different behaviors in players and fans. I certainly recognize the different personalities (generally) in people that play both sports, as I'm friends with many from both backgrounds.
I think it works both ways. Dissent certainly needs to be dealt with to improve behaviour from players and maybe even fans. But humanizing officials and finding a way to get them more respect from fans could also help improve the behaviour of players. If the fans get to know a referee better and generally respect their decision making, and hear how they've come to a specific decision, then there may well be much much less support for the player who then turns around and screams some swear words at him.
@Swango1980 Howard Webb wants people to hear the refs mic, it is the international board, IFAB I think it's called, that block that. I would love to be able to hear what's going on and I agree, I think it would stop a lot of the abuse.
Swango1980
Well-known member
I get that argument. But I think it needs to be done carefully. Improving behaviour will ultimately be about respect. You can try and stop dissent by waving yellow cards around, but if it is clear that there is no trust between players and officials, and they basically limit all communication together to avoid getting in trouble, then pundits and fans will still see officials as incompetent authority. What's more, waving about yellow cards with little explanation, is more than likely to enrage people than placate them. The top players may bite their tongue more frequently, but will people at grass roots level be able to do the same, when there are a lot less eyes watching what they are doing?
To be fair, I don't get involved at grass toots level and I know there are many things that are done to try and make things better (e.g. sin bins, ropes around the pitch parents cannot cross, etc). We seem to need to find a way of reducing the amount of people that see the referee as the enemy.
Swango1980
Well-known member
100% agree, and I'd love to know why the IFAB are against it now. Some of my favourite rugby clips on youTube are watching referees have it out with a player. Once the referee has finished talking, there is absolutely no confusion about what was on the referees mind, and everyone completely understands each other moving forward.
