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The Footie Thread

  • Thread starter Thread starter Deleted member 15344
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Ah well, job done I suppose. Qualified in Pot 1 and no serious injuries.
But my goodness, it was pretty poor & dull as ditch water to watch. Let's pray we don't face anyone good at the start of the tournament.
 
Again, not a result I'd be overly concerned about. Was poor, and multiple factors behind it. Not all Southgate's fault either.

But got me thinking.

Are England really as good as people think they are, or should be? I've heard people say they are better than the side with Gerrard, Beckham, Scholes, Lampard, Rooney, Owen, Terry, Ferdinand, Cole, etc.

However, in my eyes, England have 2 world class players. Kane and Bellingham (at least, in as much you can make that sort of judgement for such a young guy). They then have a bunch of very good attacking players, who offer different threats.

But, despite advancing far in previous tournaments, I've generally not been blown away by how good they are. Whereas back in the day, I think the England team had much better players individually, but they didn't gel nor coached well as a side. Furthermore, some of the other international sides back then were immense. Most of big nations were litterred with legendary players. Now, I think the quality in other nations has generally declined.

So, I still think England should give themselves a good chance to compete for winning a tournament. But perhaps they are not a great side, and therefore will have some sluggish displays. Especially when neither world class player starts, one not playing at all.
 
Swango1980 said:
Again, not a result I'd be overly concerned about. Was poor, and multiple factors behind it. Not all Southgate's fault either.

But got me thinking.

Are England really as good as people think they are, or should be? I've heard people say they are better than the side with Gerrard, Beckham, Scholes, Lampard, Rooney, Owen, Terry, Ferdinand, Cole, etc.

However, in my eyes, England have 2 world class players. Kane and Bellingham (at least, in as much you can make that sort of judgement for such a young guy). They then have a bunch of very good attacking players, who offer different threats.

But, despite advancing far in previous tournaments, I've generally not been blown away by how good they are. Whereas back in the day, I think the England team had much better players individually, but they didn't gel nor coached well as a side. Furthermore, some of the other international sides back then were immense. Most of big nations were litterred with legendary players. Now, I think the quality in other nations has generally declined.

So, I still think England should give themselves a good chance to compete for winning a tournament. But perhaps they are not a great side, and therefore will have some sluggish displays. Especially when neither world class player starts, one not playing at all.
Click to expand...

I’m starting to sound like a cracked record, I know, but we are no better than decent. We could be better, but Southgate undeniably holds us back.

The last two tournaments saw England given gift wrapped draws which any manager at any level would have been rubbing their hands with glee at. We absolutely could, and should, have won at least one of the last Euros or WC, probably both.

Ignore tournament qualification. The glorious failure at the tournaments themselves are the true measure.
 
Last edited:
Swango1980 said:
Again, not a result I'd be overly concerned about. Was poor, and multiple factors behind it. Not all Southgate's fault either.

But got me thinking.

Are England really as good as people think they are, or should be? I've heard people say they are better than the side with Gerrard, Beckham, Scholes, Lampard, Rooney, Owen, Terry, Ferdinand, Cole, etc.

However, in my eyes, England have 2 world class players. Kane and Bellingham (at least, in as much you can make that sort of judgement for such a young guy). They then have a bunch of very good attacking players, who offer different threats.

But, despite advancing far in previous tournaments, I've generally not been blown away by how good they are. Whereas back in the day, I think the England team had much better players individually, but they didn't gel nor coached well as a side. Furthermore, some of the other international sides back then were immense. Most of big nations were litterred with legendary players. Now, I think the quality in other nations has generally declined.

So, I still think England should give themselves a good chance to compete for winning a tournament. But perhaps they are not a great side, and therefore will have some sluggish displays. Especially when neither world class player starts, one not playing at all.
Click to expand...
I honestly think the biggest difference between the two sides is the managers. Venables v Southgate. Thinking back to the side you mentioned. Gazza, and he is under the etc bit of your team, was a toe poke away from England winning a Euro. Venables seemed to get more out of players than Southgate can in a generation when across Europe Football teams seemed better.
 
Tashyboy said:
I honestly think the biggest difference between the two sides is the managers. Venables v Southgate. Thinking back to the side you mentioned. Gazza, and he is under the etc bit of your team, was a toe poke away from England winning a Euro. Venables seemed to get more out of players than Southgate can in a generation when across Europe Football teams seemed better.
Click to expand...
Yeah, 27 years ago I think England had a manager with a very positive mindset. In the Euros, at home, the opening match against Switzerland was a borefest. Not sure they battered Scotland, but the Gazza goal was a moment lives in the memory. Then a very good performance against Netherlands. Although, after that, they drew 0-0 with Spain I think, can't remember the performance. Then drew 1-1 with Germany, but a whisker away from winning.

I so have positive memories of Venables as manager, although is it because the few good moments stick in mind more, plus the buzz of "It's Coming Home" fever? There were some pretty uninspiring results pre Euro 96 as well.

Maybe Southgate is getting loads out of these players. After all, I hear fans slag off so many England players. Maguire, Henderson, Phillips, Rashford, Grealish, etc. If fans are honest in their assessment that so many England players are awful, then Southgate is working miracles to do as well as he has done.
 
For me, there are a couple signs of a very good manager. They are:
  1. You can see a plan of what they are trying to do short and medium term
  2. They do some things that most would not think of to change the game in a winning or positive manner
I don't see either of this in Gareth and haven't for a while.
 
Beezerk said:
Moving aside from international football you have Saka who smashes it most weekends vs Rashford who mashes it most weekends 😬
Click to expand...
Agreed, Rashford has been underperforming in an underperforming Man Utd side. If Arsenal had a month or 2 of poor displays, with not much out of Saka, I'd still not turn on Saka yet.

Rashford has still generally done OK for England when he has played, albeit not against Malta. Coming on in the 86th minute against Macedonia was pointless. Had he done one great thing or scored a goal, I wouldn't start judging him as the Messiah. And if he did a couple of poor things, suddenly rate him as a failure. Before Rashford came on, so many England fans were slating Grealish for his slow build up play. Yet he brings Rashford on, the complete opposite of Grealish, and fans will slate that decision as well. I get it, Southgate should have brought on Mbappe in the 60th minute, but sadly he's French and so wasn't on the bench :)

Perhaps that is why it takes Southgate so long to make subs. After about 60 minutes he says

Southgate: "tell Mbappe to warm up".
Coach "Mbappe is French sir, he isn't available"
Southgate: "ok, we'll get Messi ready"
Coach: "actually, he is still Argentinian"
Southgate: "Damn, how about Bobby Charlton??"
Coach: "Good news is he is actually English. Bad news, he sadly passed away, and retired 53 years ago anyway"
Southgate: "Gazza?"
Coach: "Well, he'd definitely play, but I advise against it. He is 56 and not quite match sharp"
Southgate: "Hang on......how about that John Coldby fella, we could do with his presence on the pitch"
Coach: "I'd agree we could do with someone like him, however Coldby was a fictional footballer played by Michael Caine in the movie Escape to Victory"
Southgate (26 minutes later) "ahhhhhhh, OK, just stick on that Phillips fella again, same with Rashford"
Coach "Right you are sir. We anticipated you'd come to that decision in the end, so we had them warming up for the last 26 minutes"
 
Swango1980 said:
Again, not a result I'd be overly concerned about. Was poor, and multiple factors behind it. Not all Southgate's fault either.

But got me thinking.

Are England really as good as people think they are, or should be? I've heard people say they are better than the side with Gerrard, Beckham, Scholes, Lampard, Rooney, Owen, Terry, Ferdinand, Cole, etc.

However, in my eyes, England have 2 world class players. Kane and Bellingham (at least, in as much you can make that sort of judgement for such a young guy). They then have a bunch of very good attacking players, who offer different threats.

But, despite advancing far in previous tournaments, I've generally not been blown away by how good they are. Whereas back in the day, I think the England team had much better players individually, but they didn't gel nor coached well as a side. Furthermore, some of the other international sides back then were immense. Most of big nations were litterred with legendary players. Now, I think the quality in other nations has generally declined.

So, I still think England should give themselves a good chance to compete for winning a tournament. But perhaps they are not a great side, and therefore will have some sluggish displays. Especially when neither world class player starts, one not playing at all.
Click to expand...
I'd say Rice, Saka and Foden are not very far off being world class as well. We've got five players there in midfield and attack who'd get in most countries' teams in the world. We're a bit lacking in central defence and in goal. Unfortunately our manager's response to that is to act as if he's managing Dyche-era Burnley, defend first and try and nick a goal on the break. Rather than using the attacking talent we have to outscore the opposition.

Agree with you that other nations have all declined - most notably Germany and Italy, while also Spain and Brazil are not near the best teams that we've seen. International football is always going to cyclical like that, since you can't 'sign' players it's just luck of the draw how much quality is in each generation. All the more reason we need to strike while the iron is hot here, and get a manager who isn't going to waste the talent we have this time.

We definitely wasted the Gerrard etc generation with poor management. How many managers came in and tried 4-4-2 again, with Scholes wide left, Gerrard & Lampard middle even though neither could play holding midfield? We're currently in danger of becoming the next Belgium, who have now bypassed their golden generation and won nothing because they gave them to a man who still dines out on one FA Cup with Wigan a decade ago.
 
i dont understand how people can slag off Henderson for playing in a farmers league but let Phillips off when he probably spends more time playing with himself than playing for City
 
Dando said:
i dont understand how people can slag off Henderson for playing in a farmers league but let Phillips off when he probably spends more time playing with himself than playing for City
Click to expand...
At least he isn't starting the games, I guess, if he was he'd be getting it as well. He's definitely had criticism since his place in the squad should be Ward-Prowse's really. Then again people are becoming jaded to the squad selections now since they're just a cut and paste from the previous ones each time.
 
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