The Footie Thread

[fundy]

Not sure why you are surprised.

where did i say i was surprised?

 

[Swango1980]

Classic bit of whataboutery there. Like being arrested for theft and going "Answer me this though, is stealing as bad as murdering someone?? Is it??"

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Just saw that Martinelli red as well. As much as it was hilarious, I think it was a touch unfair - if you know you're already on a yellow card then maybe you don't make the second challenge? But then again this is Arsenal so maybe he still would have done. They were both utterly stupid anyway so maybe he doesn't deserve sympathy.

Didn't see it. On the face of it, I agree it sounds unfair, especially if the first foul was a fairly subjective yellow? I guess if the first foul looked like a pretty obvious yellow, then Martinelli probably should have realised he'd be booked for that, and to be careful for the rest of the move. His only excuse after that would be "I've never seen a ref do that before", which is probably not his strongest defence.

Xhaka will be upset it wasn't him to get the red card, someone somewhere will have lost out on a lot of money from a winning bet

See Neves seemed to have a little dig at Arsenal, saying they celebrated as if they won the league.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Just saw that Martinelli red as well. As much as it was hilarious, I think it was a touch unfair - if you know you're already on a yellow card then maybe you don't make the second challenge? But then again this is Arsenal so maybe he still would have done. They were both utterly stupid anyway so maybe he doesn't deserve sympathy.

Alternatively, fair play to the ref for trying to let the game flow, play advantage. That the player decided to be utterly stupid is beyond the refs control

 

[Orikoru]

Didn't see it. On the face of it, I agree it sounds unfair, especially if the first foul was a fairly subjective yellow? I guess if the first foul looked like a pretty obvious yellow, then Martinelli probably should have realised he'd be booked for that, and to be careful for the rest of the move. His only excuse after that would be "I've never seen a ref do that before", which is probably not his strongest defence.

Xhaka will be upset it wasn't him to get the red card, someone somewhere will have lost out on a lot of money from a winning bet

See Neves seemed to have a little dig at Arsenal, saying they celebrated as if they won the league.

The first one he pushed the guy in the chest while he was trying to take a throw-in, so an obvious yellow. However, he obviously then thought "I'm getting a yellow anyway, I might as well bring this next player down and waste some time" - it never entered his head that he could pick up two yellows at once. As I say, no sympathy for the fouls themselves.

 

[Swango1980]

The first one he pushed the guy in the chest while he was trying to take a throw-in, so an obvious yellow. However, he obviously then thought "I'm getting a yellow anyway, I might as well bring this next player down and waste some time" - it never entered his head that he could pick up two yellows at once. As I say, no sympathy for the fouls themselves.

I guess some credit needs to be given to the ref then? He applied a logical, common sense approach to a situation that most of us have probably never seen before. I wonder how many referees would have simply left it as a single yellow card, for fear of being criticised for doing something that may have no precedent?

 

[Orikoru]

I guess some credit needs to be given to the ref then? He applied a logical, common sense approach to a situation that most of us have probably never seen before. I wonder how many referees would have simply left it as a single yellow card, for fear of being criticised for doing something that may have no precedent?

Yeah.. I'm genuinely on the fence on this one. Ref has applied the law and done his job well I think. But the player can still feel a little hard done by, not because of what he did, but his error in making a silly foul as he didn't know he was on a yellow card at that point.

I suppose on another day, with another ref, even first foul alone could arguably have been a red card since he raised his arms and shoved the player.

 

[Neilds]

I guess some credit needs to be given to the ref then? He applied a logical, common sense approach to a situation that most of us have probably never seen before. I wonder how many referees would have simply left it as a single yellow card, for fear of being criticised for doing something that may have no precedent?

Might we now see referees giving yellow cards for fouls and then a second for the dissent that inevitably follows? Would certainly start players thinking about their behaviour and hopefully filter down to the kid's leagues.

 

[Swango1980]

Might we now see referees giving yellow cards for fouls and then a second for the dissent that inevitably follows? Would certainly start players thinking about their behaviour and hopefully filter down to the kid's leagues.

That has happened quite frequently before though (I don't mean weekly, but I mean I've certainly seen it happen several times in the past). I think referees generally have quite a high threshold in terms of how much dissent they will tolerate before giving the yellow, especially if it is a second yellow.

However, I wouldn't lose sleep if that threshold was significantly reduced before a ref gives a yellow for dissent. I think I'm happy for a player to have a few seconds to blow off a little steam due to their frustration (provided they don't do or say something terrible), but when players seem to get away with ranting and raving for an absolute age, I sometimes think the ref should just book them.

 

[fundy]

This is the problem isnt it, letter of the law the decision is correct, is it consistent with how the law has been applied for the last 5 years? no its not

Complete and utter guess every game currently how laws are being applied and interpreted. last night both sides/managers came away unhappy with the refs performance and thats not uncommon lately

 

[Lord Tyrion]

This is the problem isnt it, letter of the law the decision is correct, is it consistent with how the law has been applied for the last 5 years? no its not

Complete and utter guess every game currently how laws are being applied and interpreted. last night both sides/managers came away unhappy with the refs performance and thats not uncommon lately

To be fair, that is the default position for most managers in their post match interview. If a team loses, it was the fault of the ref, if they win but by less than 5, it is the fault of the ref. Any incident in a game that goes against a team, fault of the ref. It's been happening for years now, it isn't recent.

 

[fundy]

To be fair, that is the default position for most managers in their post match interview. If a team loses, it was the fault of the ref, if they win but by less than 5, it is the fault of the ref. Any incident in a game that goes against a team, fault of the ref. It's been happening for years now, it isn't recent.

you dont think either manager has reason? do you think decisions are consistent?

 

[Swango1980]

This is the problem isnt it, letter of the law the decision is correct, is it consistent with how the law has been applied for the last 5 years? no its not

Complete and utter guess every game currently how laws are being applied and interpreted. last night both sides/managers came away unhappy with the refs performance and thats not uncommon lately

As Lord Tyrion says, Wolves lost, and so they are unlikely to come out and start praising the referee. If they think there is any decision that could have gone the other way, they'll focus on that one decision as an excuse for losing. Likewise, Arsenal had a man sent off, so they are very unlikely going to come out and praise the referee on that.

The default is, if there is any decision at all, even if it is completely subjective and supported (or at least understood) by most neutrals, the manager for the team it went against is nearly always going to have a moan. Conversely, the opposing manager may praise the decision if asked, but then go on and moan about another incident that didn't go their way. It is rare that we hear any manager praise a referee for all the decisions they got right, even if those decisions went against them.

 

[GB72]

According the interview I just read, Zouma remains available for selection on Sunday so absolutely zero suspension from the club.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

you dont think either manager has reason? do you think decisions are consistent?

I think that for 95% of the time the managers hammer the ref as a deflection tactic. The Arsenal player was sent off for reasons of idiocy but why touch on that and the appalling red card record under Arteta when he can deflect and blame the ref? Wolves lost, struggle to score goals. Don't talk about that, blame the ref for their shortcomings. It happens game after game, most managers. It's a cop out.

Clearly refs will make errors, decisions can be inconsistent, although we are dealing with humans so that is not that unusual, but ultimately the managers embarrass themselves post match most of the time.

 

[Neilds]

I think that for 95% of the time the managers hammer the ref as a deflection tactic. The Arsenal player was sent off for reasons of idiocy but why touch on that and the appalling red card record under Arteta when he can deflect and blame the ref? Wolves lost, struggle to score goals. Don't talk about that, blame the ref for their shortcomings. It happens game after game, most managers. It's a cop out.

Clearly refs will make errors, decisions can be inconsistent, although we are dealing with humans so that is not that unusual, but ultimately the managers embarrass themselves post match most of the time.

Agree with this. No manager ever blames his players or highlights their mistakes (except may Mourinho!) so it is easy to blame the ref. Never mind his bad tactics or the missed tackles, wayward passes, etc

 

[Bdill93]

I think that for 95% of the time the managers hammer the ref as a deflection tactic. The Arsenal player was sent off for reasons of idiocy but why touch on that and the appalling red card record under Arteta when he can deflect and blame the ref? Wolves lost, struggle to score goals. Don't talk about that, blame the ref for their shortcomings. It happens game after game, most managers. It's a cop out.

Clearly refs will make errors, decisions can be inconsistent, although we are dealing with humans so that is not that unusual, but ultimately the managers embarrass themselves post match most of the time.

95% in competitive games though... 100% when playing friendlies

 

[Deleted member 29109]

I’m surprised there are some many poor refs in professional football given the level of expertise on this forum.

 

[Swango1980]

I think that for 95% of the time the managers hammer the ref as a deflection tactic. The Arsenal player was sent off for reasons of idiocy but why touch on that and the appalling red card record under Arteta when he can deflect and blame the ref? Wolves lost, struggle to score goals. Don't talk about that, blame the ref for their shortcomings. It happens game after game, most managers. It's a cop out.

Clearly refs will make errors, decisions can be inconsistent, although we are dealing with humans so that is not that unusual, but ultimately the managers embarrass themselves post match most of the time.

And, as fans we should remember we are not blessed with being consistent. We have all had opinions on specific incidents in the past, probably hundreds on this thread. There may be a few that we generally all agree on, and probably a reasonable indication the ref got it wrong (or that there is a loophole in the way a law is worded). However, there are plenty of incidents that one person 100% disagrees with a decision, whilst another 100% agrees with it. Even if you remove bias. So, if these fans were to be believed (I include all of us, including myself), and they were referees, one would give it, the other would not.

The ref has to make an absolute decision. They either make it, or they don't. They can't make a strong decision when they are 100% sure, but a lighter decision if they are 60% sure.

The red card last night, he's made a decision that is technically correct, unless there is something in the law that suggest this should be best avoided? True, I've not seen it before, but I also don't remember any incidents where it could apply (I'm sure there have been incidents, it just seems so uncommon that I don't remember any). Usually the player who makes a yellow card foul is on their backside as the ref allows play to continue, or the ref might perceive it as one long foul (i.e. pulling back a player, letting go briefly, then pulling again)

 

[Neilds]

I’m surprised there are some many poor refs in professional football given the level of expertise on this forum.

The best referees always sit behind me at matches, along with the best managers!

 

[Swango1980]

The best referees always sit behind me at matches, along with the best managers!

and the best players