Slime
Tour Winner
Bugger, I must have missed one!
Bugger, I must have missed one!
IanM
Journeyman Pro
- Joined
- May 18, 2009
- Messages
- 14,728
- Location
- Monmouthshire, UK via Guildford!
2-3 anyone?
Orikoru
Tour Winner
I'm sure he'll still be let go after the disappointing draw with Burnley this weekend. I've said it before but the Spurs board are probably waiting til February to sack him so they don't have to back a new manager in the transfer market.
irip
Head Pro
Has Frank had enough time to implement what he wants though?
It seems in the premier now clubs expect instant success.
Slot won the league last season and some fans wanted him out before Xmas.
Pep is one of the most successful managers of all time, some City fans want him gone now.
Do managers get enough time now or is instant success expected?
Orikoru
Tour Winner
I understand this idea, but I feel like most clubs also have a sort of base level that they don't want to drop below. Look at Celtic for example, they've just sacked a manager after 8 games or whatever - of course that's not enough time to impose his ideas, but also, I totally understand it because even a poor manager should be able to win games as Celtic manager, and certainly not lose all of them.
So in Spurs' case I think there needs to be some positive signs - i.e. if we were playing well but losing unluckily, he'd deserve more time. If we were playing poorly but scraping enough points to be top half, he'd have some more time. But if you're playing poorly, and losing games, and the players don't look bothered - then it just seems like you've got the wrong man in charge. And giving him more time only makes it worse. I don't think we should be as low as 14th with the squad we have - we absolutely shouldn't be losing to an awful West Ham team at home, or shipping three goals against a Dyche-managed Forest, losing home and away against Bournemouth who are below us in the table and only have six wins in total.
irip
Head Pro
It wasn’t just a dig at Spurs or Frank but at football in general.
If they get rid of him now then a new manager comes in then he has the same players as Ange and Frank had that they couldn’t get a tune out of.
Would they be better served just staying with Frank and say let’s see where we are in 3 years?
Orikoru
Tour Winner
Not if 'where we are' is the Championship, no, absolutely not. There are plenty of teams above us in the league with worse players on paper, that suggests that the right manager can get a tune out of his players.
Arthur Wedge
Well-known member
It’s called the Chelsea affect
Get some success , after 6 months sack the manager , get some success , 6 months later sack the manager - repeat and rinse
Even Leicester- win the title , sack their manager 6 months later
A manager doesn’t get any time anymore , the minute there is no instant improvement of a run of back form the calls are for the manager to be replaced
Just look back at Man Utd with Ferguson - it took him 4/5 years to get things moving in the right way , current modern fans would have wanted him gone in 2
Even see it with Slot - wins title first season , his a poor run of form and that’s it - get him sacked , to the point even the media were asking him about Alonso taking his job , someone else just sacked after 6 months
It’s a joke now - there is no paitence, no time given for any manager to get things sorted
Get some success , after 6 months sack the manager , get some success , 6 months later sack the manager - repeat and rinse
Even Leicester- win the title , sack their manager 6 months later
A manager doesn’t get any time anymore , the minute there is no instant improvement of a run of back form the calls are for the manager to be replaced
Just look back at Man Utd with Ferguson - it took him 4/5 years to get things moving in the right way , current modern fans would have wanted him gone in 2
Even see it with Slot - wins title first season , his a poor run of form and that’s it - get him sacked , to the point even the media were asking him about Alonso taking his job , someone else just sacked after 6 months
It’s a joke now - there is no paitence, no time given for any manager to get things sorted
Lucifer MorningStar
Well-known member
I agree with you. Seems all clubs and fans want instant gratification and results. Barely had 1 full transfer window where no real changes were made to shape the squad. Have Spurs moved forward under Frank? No but they’ve not gone backwards and aren’t as vulnerable as they were under Ange and are still performing in Europe.
But he’s barely had any time to change things. Half a season is not enough time to change a philosophy, you’re still doing well in Europe so suggests he can get a tune out of them.
Surely if anyone wants success it should be viewed as making progress, progress isn’t always fast and linear. Sometimes you have to accept a little stagnation until the formula is found.
Ferguson was on the brink of the sack at Utd until they won an FA Cup against Palace and from there became the best manager the premier league has ever seen.
Arteta was poor in his first 2 seasons and has see. Arsenal steadily progress up to consecutive 2nd places and now potentially winning the league.
Emery was average at first and has now built Villa into a superb team.
Surely Spurs should be looking at these models especially Arsenal and realising it takes time not just sacking people left right and Chelsea!!!
Orikoru
Tour Winner
I'm sure they didn't expect to be top 5 straight away, but surely top half was the minimum expectation. If we lost to Burnley this weekend we could theoretically be back down in 16th. I think that would be the final straw. It's pretty much a must-win game for him, as a win could take us 12th.
One of the problems I think is that Ange still had some fans on his side, just because they liked seeing attacking football (no matter how chaotic it was). So with Frank, the results haven't really improved, but also, the attacking football has gone, so he's done nothing to really get any fans on his side. It looks like we've gone backwards because the games are a worse watch, and we're not gaining any more points from them. We only have 3 more points than we did after 22 games last season - which was our worst league campaign since God was a boy.
People love to quote the Ferguson situation but how long do you give, what if they don't turn it round? It's easy of fans of other clubs to say give more time but would they want their club in the doldrums for year after year? Should Liverpool have stuck with Hodgson for 5 years for example? The Ferguson turning point was the late 80's, we really need to stop harking back to that as the default solution.
Lucifer MorningStar
Well-known member
And yet! You’re only 8 points out of being in the top 5. Don’t take a big run of games for you to be competing in the European spots such is the strength/weakness of the league depending which way you look at it.
So you’re 3points better off than you were last year so that’s an improvement, you’re sitting 4th in the Champions league table and conceding less goals than under Ange but you’re saying people would still prefer Ange ball. Surely half a season regardless of only being 3 points better off isn’t anywhere near enough to judge and allow the man to build a a squad, unless your goal is to be Chelsea and just keep sacking managers hoping something will work rather than allowing someone at least a full season to move forward.
People use it as a yard stick because it’s proof you give someone more than half a season with the same squad the previous manager failed with surely.
I totally get your point as there needs to be a cut off. But half a season surely isn’t enough time.
Orikoru
Tour Winner
Eight points is a lot. You can't make up 8 points while the nine intervening teams all earn zero points for three weeks can you??
I certainly didn't prefer Ange, I'm just saying a lot of fans did and that's why there's unrest. I was all for giving Frank time until the last couple of weeks where some shocking results have changed things, and made it look like he doesn't have the right plan. On the flipside, maybe Solanke being back will help him now, we have barely any forward options, and if we don't bring in a left winger in this window then that's the board sticking their knife into Frank's back in my opinion.
I agree that half a season is not enough, although I don't watch Spurs so I don't know how bad things are. You need to get some sort of a tune out of players though. If you really are seeing nothing, ie Celtic or Ange at Forest, then sometimes you have to go early. I like Frank, what he did at Brentford but I really don't see Spurs enough to comment with any force. My main point is the dragging up of the Ferguson episode every time a manager is about to be sacked. 'Don't sack him, remember what happened with Ferguson......' What about the 100 other managers who were given more time, got their team relegated or emptied the stadium etc. It's lazy to keep dragging that one out as though it is always the solution. Always the solution for other clubs you tend to see.
Lucifer MorningStar
Well-known member
It is a lot but my point is in the grand scheme of things if you end the season 8pts outside of it that’s not a bad season and is actually progress.
You could easily pick up enough points to finish in the automatic European positions You can’t ignore the Champions league form either. You’ve even pointed out there you have very little forward options so what the guy meant to do play attacking football with nobody on the end of it.
He needs backing and more time than he’s been given. Without that you’re going to be on rinse and repeat. Your board need to step up and back the manager not be weak and hide. But just my opinion I have no dog in the EPL fight so just looking in as an outsider seems to me fans are getting as bad as baked in expectation of instant change when it doesn’t work that way.
irip
Head Pro
You’re not going to go down though.
There is a decent chance of climbing the table.
But forget Spurs for the minute, how many clubs will have the same manager in charge at the start of next season as the start of this?
My guess is 25% roughly.
What happened to letting a manager build something, buy some young players bring some through the youth team and slowly blood them.
Similar to what Poch did with you not that long ago.
It doesn’t seem like that’s an acceptable approach anymore.
Swango1980
Well-known member
Some managers do get time. Pep, Arteta, Silva, Howe, Emery, etc.
But, I've no doubt sacking managers is incredibly more frequent than a few decades ago. More media attention on criticising performances, bigger pool of global managers, etc. , it makes it much easier for Owners to get trigger happy. In a parallel universe, I'm sure there are great managers out there that could have built a dynasty at a club had they been given 3 or 4 years to build the foundation, and everyone was willing to accept the turbulent results in that process. But we'll never know, because that wait is not a risk many are willing to take.
But, I've no doubt sacking managers is incredibly more frequent than a few decades ago. More media attention on criticising performances, bigger pool of global managers, etc. , it makes it much easier for Owners to get trigger happy. In a parallel universe, I'm sure there are great managers out there that could have built a dynasty at a club had they been given 3 or 4 years to build the foundation, and everyone was willing to accept the turbulent results in that process. But we'll never know, because that wait is not a risk many are willing to take.
irip
Head Pro
The managers you have quoted I would say have all been pretty successful as well and at pretty big clubs.
It seems to be the clubs the next level down that change managers regularly, is that because they expect to move up to the top of the table?
If so that is a high ask and fairly unrealistic I would say
Pin-seeker
Well-known member
Arthur Wedge
Well-known member
There is always the odd instance where someone just is the wrong fit
Liverpool weren’t changing managers every 6 months and he was just the wrong choice
Some clubs keep changing managers every after manager and too many are reacting too quickly because there isn’t instant results
Some managers will take their time to build up a team , Klopp took 2/3 years to get the team he wanted
The likes of Spurs won’t get anywhere if they keep firing managers
