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The Footie Thread

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Billysboots said:
Onana has played pretty well for a lot of the season, especially since AFCON. I’d stick with him. Add to the list Martinez, Shaw, Varane, Dalot, Mainoo, Hojlund, Fernandes, and Garnacho. Bar possibly Varane in the event we signed another quality CB, the rest are all starters for me.

If Rashford could raise his game so that he contributes more than the odd piece of brilliance I’d keep him. Otherwise he can go, along with a number of others.

I actually don’t think United are a million miles away from a decent starting XI, but we have simply been miles away from being able to do that because of the long term absentees in key positions.

But in terms of having strength in depth we are way short. And it is that which has been the problem. No strikers other than Hojlund and the ridiculously injury prone Martial. No left back other than Shaw and Malacia.

We’re perhaps a couple of players away from a decent starting XI. We’re half a dozen or more away from having a remotely competitive match day squad which can absorb injury absences.
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Isn’t there issues with FFP meaning the club will struggle to spend money without selling

The team reminds me of so many of those Liverpool teams through the 90’s - the odd top player surrounded by inconsistency

It’s hard to see any player in the Man Utd squad that City , Liverpool or Arsenal would take

Think there needs a big overhaul starting with the manager

Then

GK - Onana just isn’t good enough to be a top level GK but going to have to stay


Defence - too many players with injuries , Shaw , Varane both quality but don’t play enough , Martinez looks a proper defender, Dalot has done well - Maguire a mid table defender


Midfield - Naino looks a very good prospect, McTominay is a solid squad player , Casemiro just too injury prone , Eriksen tidy but prob coming to the end - then there is Fernandes - just doesn’t do enough and seems to go missing , Mount is a solid player

Forward Line - Hojlund - certainly one for the future if the service is right , Garnacho - young and exciting , then there is Rashford who looks lost , Antony - just poor


I think that Man Utd should cash in on Fernandes and Rashford and then ship out the likes of Antony , Maguire , Lindelof , Martial , AWB

Then it’s going to be a rebuild over a couple of years bringing in

2 CB , 2 Fullbacks , 3 midfielders and 2 forwards

Prob the same sort of rebuild Klopp had to do when he took over from Rodgers after he spent a lot of money on rubbish

But I don’t think the manager is good enough
 
Swango1980 said:
You obviously didn't get the context I uses the word. I called them boring in the same way Max Verstappen is boring. Boring in the same way I thought Peps Barcelona were boring. Not boring like a Dyche's Burnley. I was also not implying Man Utd are exciting in comparison.

City are boring, to me, because it seems like they absolutely dominate every single game they play, and pass the game to death. Or at least the vast majority of games. If you support such a club, it must be fantastic, and relatively stress free. As a neutral, it is dull. Watching teams like Arsenal, Spurs and Liverpool is simply more exciting.
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Watching the three teams you mention is like watching City in the first season or two when Pep took over. I honestly think teams have a chance against them. With City I think they know they will be down on possession. Defences are packed with five at the back and four in front of that. At times it’s 2 rows of five. As a fan at the game. If you don’t get an early game it can be Purgatory/ painful to watch.
Today it felt like it could be one of those days. Especially when Haaland missed the sitter of the season. If that was Nunez he would be slated.
I mentioned at half time I thought it was a decent watch for the neutral.
City play the way they do because that’s how teams dictate. Having said that last week City put 6 past Luton. Those days are becoming harder and harder.
 
Liverpoolphil said:
Isn’t there issues with FFP meaning the club will struggle to spend money without selling

The team reminds me of so many of those Liverpool teams through the 90’s - the odd top player surrounded by inconsistency

It’s hard to see any player in the Man Utd squad that City , Liverpool or Arsenal would take

Think there needs a big overhaul starting with the manager

Then

GK - Onana just isn’t good enough to be a top level GK but going to have to stay


Defence - too many players with injuries , Shaw , Varane both quality but don’t play enough , Martinez looks a proper defender, Dalot has done well - Maguire a mid table defender


Midfield - Naino looks a very good prospect, McTominay is a solid squad player , Casemiro just too injury prone , Eriksen tidy but prob coming to the end - then there is Fernandes - just doesn’t do enough and seems to go missing , Mount is a solid player

Forward Line - Hojlund - certainly one for the future if the service is right , Garnacho - young and exciting , then there is Rashford who looks lost , Antony - just poor


I think that Man Utd should cash in on Fernandes and Rashford and then ship out the likes of Antony , Maguire , Lindelof , Martial , AWB

Then it’s going to be a rebuild over a couple of years bringing in

2 CB , 2 Fullbacks , 3 midfielders and 2 forwards

Prob the same sort of rebuild Klopp had to do when he took over from Rodgers after he spent a lot of money on rubbish

But I don’t think the manager is good enough
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Agree with some of what you say, certainly not all.

When it comes to the manager, every manager post Ferguson has had exactly the same problem - absolutely zero structure supporting them. I’d be hugely reluctant to see yet another manager shown the door when the blame for the club’s failings lies above the manager.

My preference would be to get that structure in place, and then judge the manager. I genuinely don’t see how any of us can judge ETH until he is supported by at least a sporting director and head of recruitment.
 
Billysboots said:
Agree with some of what you say, certainly not all.

When it comes to the manager, every manager post Ferguson has had exactly the same problem - absolutely zero structure supporting them. I’d be hugely reluctant to see yet another manager shown the door when the blame for the club’s failings lies above the manager.

My preference would be to get that structure in place, and then judge the manager. I genuinely don’t see how any of us can judge ETH until he is supported by at least a sporting director and head of recruitment.
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Whilst you aren’t wrong about the structure - it does need sorting I don’t think ETH will last the summer , can see Ratcliffe getting rid and then looking at someone like Zidane

ETH did well at Ajax but it’s a huge step up to the Prem , it’s very hard to see what his style of play is
 
Liverpoolphil said:
Whilst you aren’t wrong about the structure - it does need sorting I don’t think ETH will last the summer , can see Ratcliffe getting rid and then looking at someone like Zidane

ETH did well at Ajax but it’s a huge step up to the Prem , it’s very hard to see what his style of play is
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It is difficult, I agree, but the chaos which has surrounded him during his tenure cannot possibly have helped.

He may well not last the summer. But my hope is that he at least gets the opportunity to sit down with a SD and head of recruitment and set out what his plans are, and then those empowered with bringing the right players in to facilitate that plan are allowed to do that.

Only once that process starts can ten Hag be fairly judged. I’m just sick of seeing managers sacked when they haven’t really been given a chance.
 
Any United fan saying Rashford can go - I hate to break it to you but no other club in the world is matching or coming close to his salary at United for a player with his returns. He’s there till he retires!
 
Billysboots said:
It is difficult, I agree, but the chaos which has surrounded him during his tenure cannot possibly have helped.

He may well not last the summer. But my hope is that he at least gets the opportunity to sit down with a SD and head of recruitment and set out what his plans are, and then those empowered with bringing the right players in to facilitate that plan are allowed to do that.

Only once that process starts can ten Hag be fairly judged. I’m just sick of seeing managers sacked when they haven’t really been given a chance.
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I think a key thing will be the level of money available but also what they find out about who was making the choice in regards spending ridiculous levels of money on players not worth their price tags - how much say did ETH have in bringing in the likes of Antony

It’s going to take some time though
 
HomerJSimpson said:
Also given what has and is happening at Old Trafford has it become something of a poisoned chalice and will most big names look elsewhere and avoid the chaos
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Given that INEOS have taken over the sporting side of things, do you think most would still see it as a "poisoned chalice". Or, see it as the beginning of a new, more organised journey?

That being said, I still don't think they should jump in and sack Ten Hag. They need to spend back end of this season sorting out the hierarchy and getting their processes I'm progress by next season. Give Ten Hag a chance to start at least a season afresh with the new people above him. Then judge him once he has managed a side in those much more organised circumstances.

For me, to just jump I'm and sack Ten Hag after a season of chaos off the field for numerous reasons, and replace him with someone like Zidane would be a joke, and would almost feel like a Glazer type decision. The only way I'd ask him to leave is if he demanded to be 100% in control of transfers, and didn't want to work with a Sporting Director and a wider team of people. I'd doubt that would be the case.
 
Swango1980 said:
Given that INEOS have taken over the sporting side of things, do you think most would still see it as a "poisoned chalice". Or, see it as the beginning of a new, more organised journey?

That being said, I still don't think they should jump in and sack Ten Hag. They need to spend back end of this season sorting out the hierarchy and getting their processes I'm progress by next season. Give Ten Hag a chance to start at least a season afresh with the new people above him. Then judge him once he has managed a side in those much more organised circumstances.

For me, to just jump I'm and sack Ten Hag after a season of chaos off the field for numerous reasons, and replace him with someone like Zidane would be a joke, and would almost feel like a Glazer type decision. The only way I'd ask him to leave is if he demanded to be 100% in control of transfers, and didn't want to work with a Sporting Director and a wider team of people. I'd doubt that would be the case.
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I'm really bored of "chaos off the field" as being an excuse for United being turd.

Chelsea has always been chaos and it never effected the players. They actually seemed to do better in the most turbulent years.

Ten Hag is not the guy. He's not even implemented a footballing identity in 18 months. Managers who have been in their teams since last summer have achieved that.

That being said, hope you keep him forever.
 
Swango1980 said:
Given that INEOS have taken over the sporting side of things, do you think most would still see it as a "poisoned chalice". Or, see it as the beginning of a new, more organised journey?

That being said, I still don't think they should jump in and sack Ten Hag. They need to spend back end of this season sorting out the hierarchy and getting their processes I'm progress by next season. Give Ten Hag a chance to start at least a season afresh with the new people above him. Then judge him once he has managed a side in those much more organised circumstances.

For me, to just jump I'm and sack Ten Hag after a season of chaos off the field for numerous reasons, and replace him with someone like Zidane would be a joke, and would almost feel like a Glazer type decision. The only way I'd ask him to leave is if he demanded to be 100% in control of transfers, and didn't want to work with a Sporting Director and a wider team of people. I'd doubt that would be the case.
Click to expand...
The thing with the INEOS takeover is it is still a big unknown in terms of their plans, involvement with team matters (we know some owners have tried to be involved with the dressing room) and the players potentially leaving at the end of the season. I still think there will be a lot going on away from the pitch and not sure how long it'll be to build a side that is capable of competing, starting with CL qualification each season, winning domestic cups and then challenging for the PL. I think for the PL they are years away
 
Bdill93 said:
I'm really bored of "chaos off the field" as being an excuse for United being turd.

Chelsea has always been chaos and it never effected the players. They actually seemed to do better in the most turbulent years.

Ten Hag is not the guy. He's not even implemented a footballing identity in 18 months. Managers who have been in their teams since last summer have achieved that.

That being said, hope you keep him forever.
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You may be bored of it, but you keep hearing it because it is true.

My response was to the comment that a manager may choose not to go to United as some see it as a "poisoned chalice". If the manager was the only person to blame, then nobody would be making comments like that.

Interesting you are bring Chelsea into the conversation, given their performances of late. Things may have gone well when Abramovich first took over, but they were the first of their kind and shook the PL. It would have been an exciting time for Chelsea, where they could just splash the cash. That sort of chaos isn't a great tactic anymore. FFP will limit what you can do, but there are also too many mega wealthy owners at other clubs, that you'll struggle to do well if you just irresponsibly splash money.

And, I will keep saying, ETH did a lot right last year. Yet, this year, everything that can go wrong seems to be going wrong off the pitch at Utd. We had a pretty good side of players, but it was fragile. Defensively, we've been decimated. We've struggled for cover in other areas, only one striker effectively as well, and Rashford has all but given up. I'm not sure ETH could have predicted Rashford's weakened mentality, given what he did last year. Even if he isn't anywhere near as technically good as most City player, I'm sure ETH would at least see him as a big threat in moments, and could still help us progress more this year as he continues to build a team over a few years. But, I'm not sure how you could play a nice style of football with players like Rashford at the club, he has demonstrated beyond doubt this season that if he gets one minor set back, he is gone. Off the ball, you are down to 10 men. And, even some of those 10 men are not very good off the ball. I don't think that is the managers fault, I just think they are really really poor players. They all have one attribute that may be really excellent, but many of them are absolutely below par in many many other aspects of the game. It seems to be why we can only produce in moments. I'm not sure many of the players at all have been signed, or coached from a kid, to be excellent off the ball players.

I'm not saying ETH is going to be the greatest manager the PL has ever seen, or that he will go on to be considered a success. But, I'm saying I have zero confidence any other manager would be doing a better job up to this point, given the circus we had last year, and the squad being decimated this year. So far, I've not heard anybody confidently and definitively tell me a manager who could come to Utd and do a better job, and that Utd should sack ETH immediately to get that guy. I'd rather the owners try and sort the structure first, and then focus on the manager after. If they rush in and try and change too many things, then if things do or don't go well, it may be less obvious what change had the biggest impact.
 
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