The Footie Thread

[Lord Tyrion]

In the league of real football and no VAR, lovely comeback win last night for us!

Where do Watford stand this year? Will you get into the playoffs? Is the team decent, things stable?

 

[clubchamp98]

Just had a quick Google and on the BBC site it states this. The last sentence sums it up nicely.

What does the handball law say?​

According to the laws of the game, when deciding a handball decision in a game, referees have three key considerations:

• Whether it is a "deliberate action" by the player - ie have they moved their arm towards the ball?;
• The proximity of the player from the ball and the speed it hits them on the arm/hand;
• If the the hand or arm is in "an unnatural position", - ie away from the body

In the case of the Livramento handball, the referee deemed that even if it was not deliberate and the Newcastle defender was unable to react quickly enough, his arm was in an unnatural position.

Would it have been given in the Premier League?​

Where it becomes more complicated for fans, players and managers to understand is that, around the laws of the game, different competitions can include additional mitigation for referees to consider.

In the Premier League, allowances are made by officials for when the ball strikes another part of the body first, prior to it hitting the player's arm.

On that basis, it is possible Livramento would not have been penalised had it been a Premier League match.

In April, the Uefa football board - an independent advisory group - recommended that "Uefa should clarify that no handball offence should be called on a player if the ball is previously deflected from his own body".

Keith Hackett, former general manager of the Professional Game Match Officials Limited (PGMOL), the English referees' body, told the Daily Telegraph that Uefa did not implement this recommendation for its own competitions.

"Last April, in their guidelines for the upcoming season, the Uefa board recommended that there should be clarity that no handball offence should be called on a player if the ball is previously deflected from their own body," Hackett said. "But this recommendation was not implemented - and Newcastle paid the price at the Parc des Princes."

Suffice to say it’s a shocking decision

So given that the PL refs are interpreting the law different from European refs.!

Thats not right surley?

 

[clubchamp98]

I don’t think VAR was wrong in the toon game.

They merely asked the ref to have a look.
If he saw the same pictures as us that’s not handball!
He had plenty of time to make his mind up but bottled it imo.
It wasn’t VAR it was a weak ref who until then had been very good.

 

[SteveW86]

For the VAR to ask them to look at it, they must have thought it was a penalty?

 

[Lord Tyrion]

For the VAR to ask them to look at it, they must have thought it was a penalty?

And then the ref should say 'don't be daft, that's not a penalty '

 

[SteveW86]

And then the ref should say 'don't be daft, that's not a penalty '

Yes, I'd agree with that. However, I would also say that VAR has failed because it asked the ref to take a look at it.

 

[clubchamp98]

Yes, I'd agree with that. However, I would also say that VAR has failed because it asked the ref to take a look at it.

It’s a fact it hit his arm.
The ref might have missed it???
All VAR did was ask him to look at it!

In the end the on field ref makes the call given all the evidence.
This is where it’s all going wrong imo.
They need the strength to say NO it’s not a penalty.


The handball law is not fit for purpose and some sort of consistency across decisions Is needed.
It seems every time they try to sort it out ,they make it worse!

 

[SteveW86]

VAR's are qualified referees arent they? So he has looked at it and thinks it is, or could be a penalty. If he thinks that then its his job to ask the ref to look at it and make a decision. For me, the ref should have been stronger and said no, its not a pen. I also think VAR is wrong here to suggest it could be a pen, so in my eyes, both the ref and the VAR were poor in this situation.

 

[Golfmmad]

There talking about using VAR more for second yellows and free kicks.

I've heard that the red card that Dunk got against Nottingham Forest was the first time in 12 years that a player has been sent off for serious and foul language.
Has that now set a precedent?

 

[SteveJay]

I've heard that the red card that Dunk got against Nottingham Forest was the first time in 12 years that a player has been sent off for serious and foul language.
Has that now set a precedent?

Hopefully it has.

Abusing the officials needs to be eradicated at the top, in order that the same effect can cascade down to grass roots football.

 

[Tashyboy]

So given that the PL refs are interpreting the law different from European refs.!

Thats not right surley?

I thought exactly the same, only just had time to respond. Again look at the Fa cup. If the home team is a Prem team we have VAR. If not, no VAR so linesman Has to flag. It does my head in. Referees reffing a game differently depending what ground there at.
Re last nights penalty decision. The UEFA rules are clear from April. If it comes off the body and hits the arm no penalty. That’s the rules, surely one of the two officials ( Ref and VAR) should have known that and at that point said lthe rules state that is not a penalty”.
Why is just the VAR guy stood down from last night though. Shocking.

 

[clubchamp98]

I've heard that the red card that Dunk got against Nottingham Forest was the first time in 12 years that a player has been sent off for serious and foul language.
Has that now set a precedent?

That’s only because the refs are piss weak and put up with it.

In any other job anywhere would this be tolerated in the workplace ?

 

[clubchamp98]

VAR's are qualified referees arent they? So he has looked at it and thinks it is, or could be a penalty. If he thinks that then it’s his job to ask the ref to look at it and make a decision. For me, the ref should have been stronger and said no, it’s not a pen. I also think VAR is wrong here to suggest it could be a pen, so in my eyes, both the ref and the VAR were poor in this situation.

You said “ VAR had failed for asking him to look at it”

Thats their job surely!
It dosnt mean the infield ref HAS to agree with VAR.

 

[Tashyboy]

If you are bored for two mins, check out the Barnsley winner last night on YouTube

 

[Swango1980]

You said “ VAR had failed for asking him to look at it”

Thats their job surely!
It dosnt mean the infield ref HAS to agree with VAR.

You make it sound so simple. VAR's job is NOT to ask the ref to revisit every single subjective decision. It is to ask the ref to review a decision that was likely made wrong initially. It is why VAR are meant to be qualified officials.

If it was their job to simply ask the ref to review EVERYTHING, then they failed in that job anyway when they didn't ask him to review an earlier incident where his hit the Newcastle player's arm

Once VAR ask for review, that is immediately a sign to ref that they think, at least on balance of probability, the initial call was likely wrong. It is also a sign to players, managers, and fans that they think it was wrong. At that point, psychologically it is extremely difficult for a ref to not go along with VAR. When the eyes of the stadium and the cameras are on them, he is under pressure to make a call when at monitor. He may still think no penalty, but also wonder why the hell he has been called in 1st place. He may think he is missing something, as VAR has just had 3 minutes to look at same thing. The VAR are probably explaining to him what they have seen, and almost convincing him the call needs changed. It takes some balls to say "VAR, you are taking rubbish, the initial call was fine", then turn away and stick the middle finger up to the home fans, so to speak

 

[SteveW86]

You said “ VAR had failed for asking him to look at it”

Thats their job surely!
It dosnt mean the infield ref HAS to agree with VAR.

Yes, and I stand by that.

In my opinion it was so obviously not a penalty that the ref shouldnt have been asked to look at it.

 

[Piece]

Where do Watford stand this year? Will you get into the playoffs? Is the team decent, things stable?

I think the answer varies, dependent on the last result! .

We are definitely improving but have long way to go. Stability has certainly helped, giving this new coach time to assert his philosophy. Fundamentally, you are really only as good as the quality of your players - I would say we are top 10 definitely and at a push may scrape into the play-offs. I don't think we will though, unless we have a mega winter transfer window. I'm hoping next year will see vast improvements, but we all say that though?!

 

[clubchamp98]

You make it sound so simple. VAR's job is NOT to ask the ref to revisit every single subjective decision. It is to ask the ref to review a decision that was likely made wrong initially. It is why VAR are meant to be qualified officials.

If it was their job to simply ask the ref to review EVERYTHING, then they failed in that job anyway when they didn't ask him to review an earlier incident where his hit the Newcastle player's arm

Once VAR ask for review, that is immediately a sign to ref that they think, at least on balance of probability, the initial call was likely wrong. It is also a sign to players, managers, and fans that they think it was wrong. At that point, psychologically it is extremely difficult for a ref to not go along with VAR. When the eyes of the stadium and the cameras are on them, he is under pressure to make a call when at monitor. He may still think no penalty, but also wonder why the hell he has been called in 1st place. He may think he is missing something, as VAR has just had 3 minutes to look at same thing. The VAR are probably explaining to him what they have seen, and almost convincing him the call needs changed. It takes some balls to say "VAR, you are taking rubbish, the initial call was fine", then turn away and stick the middle finger up to the home fans, so to speak

Yes but in this case VAR was wrong. but the ref bottled it he should have corrected them after looking at the screen.

His job is to get it correct no matter the pressure from VAR or home fans!

I never said “review everything”

but a penalty in extra time ???

 

[TimShady]

Yes but in this case VAR was wrong. but the ref bottled it he should have corrected them after looking at the screen.

His job is to get it correct no matter the pressure from VAR or home fans!

I never said “review everything”

but a penalty in extra time ???

Hearing analysis since, it seems that VAR did the right thing by bringing it to the attention of the ref, given the competition’s harsher interpretation of handball.

 

[clubchamp98]

Yes, and I stand by that.

In my opinion it was so obviously not a penalty that the ref shouldnt have been asked to look at it.

Not to the VAR official it wasn’t
I agree it was never a pen.
But the ref has to be stronger and tell him he’s wrong..

But in this case like so many others we have two Qualified referees with polar opposite opinions but one has changed his mind on very clear evidence that proved it hit his chest first.

your entitled to your opinion though.