The Footie Thread

[Hobbit]

I wonder what England would achieve in tournaments if selections and tactics were a little different? Would it really be better than recent years? Would different tactics achieve more or would it just look prettier?

Losing the last Euro’s final was hard to bear but that’s the only one I feel England underachieved in. Whatever version of England play, they would be up against the ‘premier’ international teams.

 

[Swango1980]

That's because Brazil are a big team. We aren't.

And there is that typical English mentality. No self confidence at all.

 

[Swango1980]

I wonder what England would achieve in tournaments if selections and tactics were a little different? Would it really be better than recent years? Would different tactics achieve more or would it just look prettier?

Losing the last Euro’s final was hard to bear but that’s the only one I feel England underachieved in. Whatever version of England play, they would be up against the ‘premier’ international teams.

The golden generation had wonderful players, hence the nickname. Had they been Italian or German, they'd have played with confidence and would be feared. But they were English. Played as if they were scared of their own shadow, and the other big nations knew it

 

[Slime]

The golden generation had wonderful players, hence the nickname. Had they been Italian or German, they'd have played with confidence and would be feared. But they were English. Played as if they were scared of their own shadow, and the other big nations knew it

I think they were also terrified of our own shameful media.
One shoddy performance and they knew they'd be absolutely slaughtered by the press.

 

[Deleted member 1147]

And there is that typical English mentality. No self confidence at all.

No, just realism

 

[Swango1980]

I think they were also terrified of our own shameful media.
One shoddy performance and they knew they'd be absolutely slaughtered by the press.

Possibly true. I don't live in other countries, so I don't know how the Brazilian, Italian, German, etc media treat their players after underperforming? I suspect there isn't much praise either, and that media like to be sensationally critical in many parts of the world.

But, that same media probably also heaps out tons of praise when their players are brave, put in exciting performances and win tournaments.

 

[Swango1980]

I wonder what England would achieve in tournaments if selections and tactics were a little different? Would it really be better than recent years? Would different tactics achieve more or would it just look prettier?

Losing the last Euro’s final was hard to bear but that’s the only one I feel England underachieved in. Whatever version of England play, they would be up against the ‘premier’ international teams.

It is interesting that you believe that the only time England have underachieved is when Gareth Southgate was in charge

 

[AmandaJR]

I saw some of Gareth's interview and for me it spoke volumes. His main words "composure" "build" "possession". All important for sure but I wonder if those are the key elements he's working on in camps and stressing to the players.

 

[clubchamp98]

I saw some of Gareth's interview and for me it spoke volumes. His main words "composure" "build" "possession". All important for sure but I wonder if those are the key elements he's working on in camps and stressing to the players.

Retaining possession of the ball is everything in football these days.
But it makes for a boring watch imo.
If your wide players have a chance to take the fullback on but don’t and two passes later your keeper has the ball that’s not good to watch .

But it works !

 

[Deleted member 1147]

Retaining possession of the ball is everything in football these days.
But it makes for a boring watch imo.
If your wide players have a chance to take the fullback on but don’t and two passes later your keeper has the ball that’s not good to watch .

But it works !

It's similar to the Rugby chat you often hear. Up & unders, kicking into space, ruck & maul etc are all boring, we should play more expansive Rugby.
But the best teams, and most successful teams don't play all out attack, so why should we? Because armchair fans say so.
Win or entertain, which is more important?

 

[Orikoru]

England playing well tonight against a good Italian side.

Good Italian side?? Compared to the teams we've seen from them over the years it's miles off it. Aren't they at risk of finishing behind Ukraine now? The centre backs are bang average compared to the greats they've had such as Nesta, Cannavaro, Chiellini, Bonucci. (Although that part is true of England as well.) The midfielders and forwards were pretty average too. It's probably the poorest Italian team I've seen in my lifetime.

That's because Brazil are a big team. We aren't.

I can't agree with this now to be honest with you. Aside from perhaps France I think we have one of the best national sides in the world. There's no one out there (again, excluding France probably) that doesn't have weaknesses. And our attack and first choice midfield (when Hendo isn't in it) is as good as anyone's in the world. In Kane we have one of the best strikers in the world, in Bellingham we have a future Ballon D'Or winner. Rice, Foden, top class players who are not even 25 yet. We should not be fearing anybody.

 

[Swango1980]

Good Italian side?? Compared to the teams we've seen from them over the years it's miles off it. Aren't they at risk of finishing behind Ukraine now? The centre backs are bang average compared to the greats they've had such as Nesta, Cannavaro, Chiellini, Bonucci. (Although that part is true of England as well.) The midfielders and forwards were pretty average too. It's probably the poorest Italian team I've seen in my lifetime.

I don't follow the Italian national side. They won the Euro 2020 tournament. Playing at home, they won their group against the mighty Turkey, Switzerland and Wales. In knockouts, they beat Austria in extra time, beat Belgium in the QF, beat Spain in penalties and then beat a disappointing England in the final, at Wembley. Fair play to Italy for winning, but I'm unsure they demonstrated themselves as being one of the best national sides. Just like when Greece where not the best national side when they won, they just got the best results

Italy didn't qualify for the 2018 World Cup. They didn't qualify for the 2022 World Cup. And they are under pressure to qualify for Euro 2024. So, I agree with you, it is difficult to call them a good Italian side, if we are comparing that to our expectations with Italian sides of the past. I think they've had a habit of beating England in tournaments over recent years though, so perhaps it is time for England to get carried away that they get to beat them in the qualifiers?

 

[Orikoru]

I don't follow the Italian national side. They won the Euro 2020 tournament. Playing at home, they won their group against the mighty Turkey, Switzerland and Wales. In knockouts, they beat Austria in extra time, beat Belgium in the QF, beat Spain in penalties and then beat a disappointing England in the final, at Wembley. Fair play to Italy for winning, but I'm unsure they demonstrated themselves as being one of the best national sides. Just like when Greece where not the best national side when they won, they just got the best results

Italy didn't qualify for the 2018 World Cup. They didn't qualify for the 2022 World Cup. And they are under pressure to qualify for Euro 2024. So, I agree with you, it is difficult to call them a good Italian side, if we are comparing that to our expectations with Italian sides of the past. I think they've had a habit of beating England in tournaments over recent years though, so perhaps it is time for England to get carried away that they get to beat them in the qualifiers?

Honestly I was fuming that we lost that final in 2021. The Italy side was better then than it is now, starting line-ups of the two sides were similar, but our bench had so many better attacking options. Southgate used none of them until about 2 minutes from time until he brought them on and they missed penalties because they'd had no time to get into the game. It was then that I (and a lot of people) started to realise that Southgate is a useless tactician. We should have won that tournament, once it went to extra time that should have played into our hands, but Southgate managed to turned our strength in depth into a weakness.

I'm not getting carried away with beating them last night, we absolutely should have beaten them. As I said, just looking at their side on paper it's extremely poor.

 

[Swango1980]

Honestly I was fuming that we lost that final in 2021. The Italy side was better then than it is now, starting line-ups of the two sides were similar, but our bench had so many better attacking options. Southgate used none of them until about 2 minutes from time until he brought them on and they missed penalties because they'd had no time to get into the game. It was then that I (and a lot of people) started to realise that Southgate is a useless tactician. We should have won that tournament, once it went to extra time that should have played into our hands, but Southgate managed to turned our strength in depth into a weakness.

I'm not getting carried away with beating them last night, we absolutely should have beaten them. As I said, just looking at their side on paper it's extremely poor.

Indeed. There was pressure in last nights game, but not massive pressure. Had England lost last night, they've still got games against Malta and North Macedonia to get the job done, whilst Italy and Ukraine still need to play against each other, so at least one will drop points. England also have a much better goal difference.

The true test for Southgate is when he gets to the knockout stages of tournaments, where there is no second chance. You lose, you go home. That is when I think he plays with fear, and he perhaps freezes when it comes to the tactical side of the game and subs. He has fantastic players in his squad, and he has certainly done a good job with team moral. That shouldn't be overlooked, a better tactician could destroy some of that team bonding and maybe do more harm than good. But, I still think he relies on the quality of the players to get things done, rather than having any superiority in how he sets his team up to play.

But, I've no negative comments about last night, it was a good performance. I only got involved in this chat because I didn't think it proved anything, or was a redemption for Southgate. He still has to provide those doubters wrong in a tournament. I hope he does. And from what I see with Bellingham, both in terms of his football, his attitude and his confidence / charisma in the interviews after, England have one hell of a player. I think he'll be a club and national captain very shortly (at least when the captains armband next becomes available). Don't even need to worry about getting too carried away about a young player, as he is already proving he can do the business, for quite a few years already. And he is only 20

 

[Tashyboy]

And there is that typical English mentality. No self confidence at all.

I think if Southgate played players that should be in the team as against players that shouldn’t’, and I include Phillips in that then we would be a big team. Southgate is doing a very good job in turning fans against Maguire, Henderson and Phillips. If he carries on Rashford will be on that list.
Southgates defence is that these players do a job for England. Well if he don’t play other players how do we know or not know that other players would actually do a better job.
I have every confidence in the players that should be playing for England, I have no confidence in the manager.

 

[Beezerk]

I think if Southgate played players that should be in the team as against players that shouldn’t’, and I include Phillips in that then we would be a big team. Southgate is doing a very good job in turning fans against Maguire, Henderson and Phillips. If he carries on Rashford will be on that list.
Southgates defence is that these players do a job for England. Well if he don’t play other players how do we know or not know that other players would actually do a better job.
I have every confidence in the players that should be playing for England, I have no confidence in the manager.

Yes Rashford scored but he’s a headless chicken the rest of the time, those long clearances near the end when he had players 10 yards away screaming for the ball

 

[Tashyboy]

Yes Rashford scored but he’s a headless chicken the rest of the time, those long clearances near the end when he had players 10 yards away screaming for the ball

What I don’t understand about Southgate, he has been public enemy number one through missing a penalty. He knows how fickle supporters can be. I don’t think he is handling the Maguire, Hendo and Phillips job very well indeed. Me I thought Phillips was very lucky to stay on the pitch last night. if he had been sent off the would have been a massive lambasting of Southgate. Once more he was lucky.

 

[Swango1980]

What I don’t understand about Southgate, he has been public enemy number one through missing a penalty. He knows how fickle supporters can be. I don’t think he is handling the Maguire, Hendo and Phillips job very well indeed. Me I thought Phillips was very lucky to stay on the pitch last night. if he had been sent off the would have been a massive lambasting of Southgate. Once more he was lucky.

The Maguire issue, I don't think he is handling it badly. The only time I'd criticise him a bit was when he brought him on as a sub in that recent friendly. Unless there was an injury problem, it was probably unnecessary. Sure, he became a squad player last year, but still had made appearances for Utd, and solid for England. And Utd have proved they can be horrific defensively without Maguire.

Kalvin Phillips, I just don't get. He has barely played for about 2 years. And there are other midfielders out there that can surely do the job, who have good experience now playing at a high level and under pressure?

And when a 33 year old goes to Saudi Arabia, a player who wasn't much better than average anyway, I'm shocked he is still selected. It must be for his banter in the dressing room. But given the criticism fans have had of him, even if you still pick him, making him Captain against Oz was asking for a critical fan reception. That was surely something he could have seen coming and easily avoided.

 

[Bunkermagnet]

What I don’t understand about Southgate, he has been public enemy number one through missing a penalty. He knows how fickle supporters can be. I don’t think he is handling the Maguire, Hendo and Phillips job very well indeed. Me I thought Phillips was very lucky to stay on the pitch last night. if he had been sent off the would have been a massive lambasting of Southgate. Once more he was lucky.

For me, it's more about stating you will pick players on form and if you aren't playing regularly you wont be considered.
He talks a crock, so I am done with Southgate.

 

[Hobbit]

It is interesting that you believe that the only time England have underachieved is when Gareth Southgate was in charge

Good point. I think I’ve blanked out the Capello/Erickson years. Allardyce had a great run though.