The Footie Thread

[GB72]

Better to apologise than to blindly claim a decision was correct when it clearly was not. The game is not going to be replayed, we still don't have any points from the match, but at least now we can accept that the refs have acknowledged a mistake was made. We move on to the next game.......

Trouble is you then have an admission of error and liability. May seem far fetched but lets say that team is then religated and that point would have kept them up. Could you then be looking at a law suit based on an admitted error on the part of the ref costing a club tens of millions of pounds. If there is any common sense, there will be provisions in the competition terms and conditions absolving all referees from any legal liability but the situation is not impossible.

 

[Swango1980]

I don't know how they've made such a mess of var. Would it help having an ex player and a referee in the var room?

Like who, Paul Merson? Alan Shearer?

Referees get plenty of criticism when they make a mistake, and get accused of being arrogant by fans and the media (including by many ex player pundits) when they do not come out and admit their mistake. Ironic really, because when Mike Riley finally does admit a mistake, he is accused of going down a slippery slope (which I agree with, thus indicating it is better to keep quiet if you are a ref, and ignore the ex-players).

If an ex-player was to be in charge of VAR, I bet they'd likely be seen as even more arrogant then the current officials. They'll still make mistakes, and no doubt fans will start questioning their club loyalties, or point back to times in their playing past that question that players personality.

 

[Deleted member 1740]

Better to apologise than to blindly claim a decision was correct when it clearly was not. The game is not going to be replayed, we still don't have any points from the match, but at least now we can accept that the refs have acknowledged a mistake was made. We move on to the next game.......

Whats the threshold for apologies?

He could be phoning 10 managers every weekend apologising for some of the stuff we've witnessed in recent seasons.

He is the problem imo. The standard of refereeing in England is horrific.

VAR has been misused and its all down to Riley. Why didnt Kavanagh tell Tierney to check the screen and see if he thinks it's a pen?

Because theyre not allowed to under his orders.

I'm certain had he done so he changes his mind and gives the pen.

Here's a stat for you, when a ref has been referred to the monitor this season, 0 decisions have been upheld. On the balance of probability that cant right.

 

[Liverbirdie]

Ryan Fraser was interviewed on Motd after their win and asked 'what has Eddie Howe changed?' 'Everything ' came the reply. He then gave a list of what Howe has improved. They then went back to the studio and Lineker asked Shearer about it, Shearer being a big mate of Bruce as well as a Toon legend of course. I don't think I have seen Alan concentrate so hard whilst giving an answer ?. It was a masterclass in avoiding the crux of the question whilst still answering part of it.

I know Fraser wasn't getting a game under Bruce, he is now a regular under Howe, so there may be no love lost. However, the displays are worlds apart, Newcastle now have a method to their play, they have a unity, drive and lord above, Joelinton is now no longer the worst player ever to pull on a PL shirt. He is actually pretty decent ?. Toon fans have every right to say 'told you so'.

And spending a load of money on new signings didn't have a big effect?

 

[HomerJSimpson]

Is the standard of English referees really that bad when you compare them to the continent. Which countries are using VAR? From what I've seen from the CL and Europa Leagues on TV there aren't many stand out referees anywhere

 

[3offTheTee]

Sure are friends N. of The Border are aware that Scotland play Ukraine in the play off for The World Cup in just over 3 weeks’ time. Hope everything has changed by then but expect it will be an extremely emotional night.

 

[GB72]

Whats the threshold for apologies?

He could be phoning 10 managers every weekend apologising for some of the stuff we've witnessed in recent seasons.

He is the problem imo. The standard of refereeing in England is horrific.

VAR has been misused and its all down to Riley. Why didnt Kavanagh tell Tierney to check the screen and see if he thinks it's a pen?

Because theyre not allowed to under his orders.

I'm certain had he done so he changes his mind and gives the pen.

Here's a stat for you, when a ref has been referred to the monitor this season, 0 decisions have been upheld. On the balance of probability that cant right.

And here is one problem, refs are being told how to use VAR. Not putting it up as any form of ideal but in rugby the ref can apply the tools he has at his disposal how he wants. If he wants it on screen, he asks for it, if he would rather rely on his own judgement and ignore the video, he can. He specifies what he wants looked at and the video ref can give guidance but the final decision is with the ref having looked at what evidence he wants. The video is there to help the ref and not absolve him of having to make decisions.

 

[Swango1980]

Whats the threshold for apologies?

He could be phoning 10 managers every weekend apologising for some of the stuff we've witnessed in recent seasons.

He is the problem imo. The standard of refereeing in England is horrific.

VAR has been misused and its all down to Riley. Why didnt Kavanagh tell Tierney to check the screen and see if he thinks it's a pen?

Because theyre not allowed to under his orders.

I'm certain had he done so he changes his mind and gives the pen.

Here's a stat for you, when a ref has been referred to the monitor this season, 0 decisions have been upheld. On the balance of probability that cant right.

This may be the thing I sort of disagree with. Technically, the VAR ref is only likely to ask the ref to check the screen if they "know" he made the incorrect decision, not if they are on the fence and may be leaning one side of it. That is with all the camera angles and speeds they can watch the incident with. So, the probability is that the onfield ref will have to reverse nearly every original decision they made, when called to the screen. If they don't, they are saying the VAR was wrong, and it brings into question why the VAR even thought it was an obvious error in the first place.

The key question is, why do the VAR refs NOT seek a review for some of the most obvious mistakes, like the City handball? Was it a poor technicality set out, such as the shirt sleeve debate? Or, did he just have a nightmare, and other VAR refs would have asked for the review?

I still often wonder if the review could simply be initiated by the team management, where they get one or 2 reviews a half (although offside could still be permanently judged by VAR)? I appreciate they might use it to their advantage at times, to waste time at end of a game? Maybe things can be done to mitigate that, or just accept it. At least it gives some power back to the football teams, rather than having to rely on the 3rd party refs not making mistakes or being able to spot them

 

[Deleted member 1740]

Is the standard of English referees really that bad when you compare them to the continent. Which countries are using VAR? From what I've seen from the CL and Europa Leagues on TV there aren't many stand out referees anywhere

I dont know what the continent has to do with the standard of PL refereeing.

Watch the CL and EL properly and you'll see the difference in the use of VAR.

 

[greenone]

Like who, Paul Merson? Alan Shearer?

Referees get plenty of criticism when they make a mistake, and get accused of being arrogant by fans and the media (including by many ex player pundits) when they do not come out and admit their mistake. Ironic really, because when Mike Riley finally does admit a mistake, he is accused of going down a slippery slope (which I agree with, thus indicating it is better to keep quiet if you are a ref, and ignore the ex-players).

If an ex-player was to be in charge of VAR, I bet they'd likely be seen as even more arrogant then the current officials. They'll still make mistakes, and no doubt fans will start questioning their club loyalties, or point back to times in their playing past that question that players personality.

No I was thinking of recently retired players not the back in my day brigade that are more interested in making headlines.

 

[Deleted member 1740]

This may be the thing I sort of disagree with. Technically, the VAR ref is only likely to ask the ref to check the screen if they "know" he made the incorrect decision, not if they are on the fence and may be leaning one side of it. That is with all the camera angles and speeds they can watch the incident with. So, the probability is that the onfield ref will have to reverse nearly every original decision they made, when called to the screen. If they don't, they are saying the VAR was wrong, and it brings into question why the VAR even thought it was an obvious error in the first place.

The key question is, why do the VAR refs NOT seek a review for some of the most obvious mistakes, like the City handball? Was it a poor technicality set out, such as the shirt sleeve debate? Or, did he just have a nightmare, and other VAR refs would have asked for the review?

I still often wonder if the review could simply be initiated by the team management, where they get one or 2 reviews a half (although offside could still be permanently judged by VAR)? I appreciate they might use it to their advantage at times, to waste time at end of a game? Maybe things can be done to mitigate that, or just accept it. At least it gives some power back to the football teams, rather than having to rely on the 3rd party refs not making mistakes or being able to spot them

Using the most recent one on saturday, there is no way Tierney gives that as pen without guessing.

Surely he says something along the lines of to VAR "it looks like hes chested it but im behind it"

Tierney sees that and gives it 99.9% certain of it.

Again, the rules of use of VAR by the on field ref are set by Riley. He is the problem. His use and rules are the problem.

Until he changes tack or goes then nothing will improve.

Ive been against VAR because i knew with this lot of referees theyll still get it wrong.

 

[Deleted member 1740]

No I was thinking of recently retired players not the back in my day brigade that are more interested in making headlines.

Still no. Ex players generally arent the brightest of people. You've only got to listen to some of the "analysis".

 

[greenone]

Still no. Ex players generally arent the brightest of people. You've only got to listen to some of the "analysis".

At least they understand the game. That can't be said of most of the referees at the moment who seem to know the minutia of the laws, but are completely clueless when it comes to applying the laws with any common sense.

 

[Swango1980]

No I was thinking of recently retired players not the back in my day brigade that are more interested in making headlines.

Merson and Shearer were recently retired once upon a time. Can you imagine Carragher or Neville were to go on to be VAR refs immediately after retirement as a player? They'd be instantly hated by many opposing fans. As a pundit, a person can sort of get away with it and maybe their personality and analysis can win fans over. But, if they were a football official, that would be another issue entirely. I think the same could be said for many big players who played for big teams, or players with a questionable disciplinary record in their playing days.

Most referees (or probably all) have probably been interested in refereeing from a young age. Been a referee at many different levels, gaining experience and qualifications. All whilst footballers have been busy playing football (and focusing on their social media following). So, I don't agree that footballers are better qualified at being a referee, and their comments "that is a decision by a person who hasn't played the game" is pure arrogance. Refs make mistakes, and I'm sure many of those mistakes actually come about by the silly technical advice they are given, trying to make every possible incident a "black or white decision". So, for example, if they HAVE been told to follow the sleeve rule for handball, then they'll spend too much attention on this, and less on their own common sense judgement.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

And spending a load of money on new signings didn't have a big effect?

His biggest buy is the Brazilian that has barely got on the pitch. The rest were well within the Bruce sphere of spending. Trippier £12m, Burn, £13m, Wood was a panic that is not working but they have that to burn. Targett was a loan signing. Newcastle and Howe will go nuts in the summer but at this stage the turnaround is not really due to big spending.

You also have to look at the change in performances from a number of players who looked Championship level under Bruce. Howe has got them performing.

 

[Piece]

At least they understand the game. That can't be said of most of the referees at the moment who seem to know the minutia of the laws, but are completely clueless when it comes to applying the laws with any common sense.

They may understand the game, but many do not know the laws *properly*. Can't have an ex-player who isn't officially qualified in football laws, making a "judgement". I'd love to see these ex-players try 90mins in the official's shoes. They'd wet their pants.

As Stu_C said above, some of the "expert" analysis I've heard, particularly recently, just simply isn't correct.

For Riley to apologise is embarrassing and incorrect. Where does it stop?

VAR is fine IMHO, it's just the law itself (and the lack of understanding of it), that's the issue. Of course VAR can be refined, but no VAR system in any sport will be 100%.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

It is a slippery slope though. It sets a precedent to all the clubs now to expect more acknowledgement of mistakes week to week. Project that situation forward and how long before we see clubs demanding compensation.

I know a better VAR is coming but it's causing more issues than it solves in its current form.

Bizarre really. I don't understand why anything was said here at all, it's a situation that is probably better dealt with by saying nothing and moving on.

I'll just reply to this post as it was the first reply, but take it as a blanket reply to those who have made a similar point. I don't mind an apology, an admission that a mistake was made. They are human, accept that. Some decisions can be wrong but by the smallest of margins, a judgement call you might say. In those instances there is no need to say anything. When a decision has clearly been wrong, why not hold your hands up. I think managers, players, fans, would have more respect for that. The alternative is that you look and think 'really, you still think that was right ?'

I don't buy the compensation claim angle. Decisions not going your way has always been a part of sport, all sports, you just have to accept what happens. No court would look at that, I doubt governing bodies would allow it to happen, it is part and parcel of the game, any game.

 

[GB72]

I'll just reply to this post as it was the first reply, but take it as a blanket reply to those who have made a similar point. I don't mind an apology, an admission that a mistake was made. They are human, accept that. Some decisions can be wrong but by the smallest of margins, a judgement call you might say. In those instances there is no need to say anything. When a decision has clearly been wrong, why not hold your hands up. I think managers, players, fans, would have more respect for that. The alternative is that you look and think 'really, you still think that was right ?'

I don't buy the compensation claim angle. Decisions not going your way has always been a part of sport, all sports, you just have to accept what happens. No court would look at that, I doubt governing bodies would allow it to happen, it is part and parcel of the game, any game.

I disagree with the last comment in certain circumstances. Last second of the game and a goal is allowed or a penaty given incorrectly. That can directly correlate to the loss of one or 2 points that could be the difference between relegation or surviving. That is then admitted to being an error. Until that happens, it is a judgement call that can be defended as being your view or interpretation. Once you admit the mistake, that element is removed and you open yourself up to legal action.

Swap the situation to a car accident, the car in front brakes suddenly and you go into the back of it. You say nothing and the debate about whether it was poor braking or whether you were driving too close remains open. Result is that each insurance company probably covers their own claim. You see how different that is if one party says it was their fault. Suddenly their insurer invalidates the policy for an admission of guilt, the other insurer does not pay out as it is the fault of another driver and then it all ends up in court with personal liability for the costs. Admission of error can be a big thing, especially where tens of millions of pounds are involved.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1498313771760201729

He is always a good read of VAR decisions

 

[Orikoru]

In general, it is probably best to separate pride / hope in fellow country men, and a prejudice against people from another country. I'm sure there are plenty of examples where the press have been full of praise for foreign managers, and many many examples where the press have been critical of British managers. However, we live in Britain, so it should be no surprise that you are going to see many familiar British faces in management, managers who will have gone through good and bad times. It is more to do with geography than actual xenophobia. I am guessing in most other countries, most managers will be natives of that country? They are more connected to the footballing and broader culture of that country.

Besides, even if such accusations are going to be made against the press in general, perhaps it should be asked of society in general? It wasn't that long ago the following statement was made on this forum:


"Leeds have appointed some American bloke. Relegation confirmed"

It's called giving an opinion when we do it though, it's the entire point of a forum. I'm not a shy of giving my opinion, and I'm certainly not afraid of being proved wrong later as it's happened many, many, many times. Water off a duck's back, given that nothing we say here has any consequence whatsoever. Definitely not on a par with national mainstream media.