The Brexit Irish Border Solution

[Deleted member 1418]

Because if I destabilise something by my actions against the wishes of others I have been in partnership with, I might be expected to put something else in place acceptable to my erstwhile partners to mitigate the consequences of my actions. And if I do nothing or my ideas are not acceptable, then I cannot complain if the partners do whatever they need to do to stabilise the situation - and that may not suit me.

But I initiated the instability through my actions and I precipitated what my partners had to do. I might contend that I am blameless and complain at the pain that I am now suffering as a result of my erstwhile partners stabilising actions - but I am not blameless - I am complicit - I am the author of my own discomfort.

Actions that were brought on don't forget by the inability of our 'friends and partners' to respect or take into consideration the growing concerns over the direction the EU was taking expressed by our Government at the time; and the EUs inability to reform......even where they themselves admitted they probably needed to do so. 😉

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Actions that were brought on don't forget by the inability of our 'friends and partners' to respect or take into consideration the growing concerns over the direction the EU was taking expressed by our Government at the time; and the EUs inability to reform......even where they themselves admitted they probably needed to do so. 😉

Doesn't matter why - the actions of leaving the EU and putting a Red Line in the ground on the Customs Union are the UKs actions of CHOICE - the UK was not FORCED to do what we are doing.

Maybe we should have thought or been told a bit more about the consequences of our actions before setting out on such a course as we have done - the road to nowhere other than pain.

 

[Deleted Member 1156]

Doesn't matter why - the actions of leaving the EU and putting a Red Line in the ground on the Customs Union are the UKs actions of CHOICE - the UK was not FORCED to do what we are doing.

Maybe we should have thought or been told a bit more about the consequences of our actions before setting out on such a course as we have done - the road to nowhere other than pain.

You must really have taken a hit on your post count in the recent forum cleanup, never mind it won't take you long to get it back at this rate :thup:

 

[Deleted member 1418]

Maybe we should have thought or been told a bit more about the consequences of our actions before setting out on such a course as we have done - the road to nowhere other than pain.

And may be the EU should have considered a bit more the consequences of not taking our PM at the time a bit more seriously the concerns he was airing.

You always bleat and moan at the actions of our Government; at no point have you questioned the views, attitudes and actions of other MS leaders and Commission officials in their dealings with UK officials in the lead up to the referendum.

 

[Dando]

Doesn't matter why - the actions of leaving the EU and putting a Red Line in the ground on the Customs Union are the UKs actions of CHOICE - the UK was not FORCED to do what we are doing.

Maybe we should have thought or been told a bit more about the consequences of our actions before setting out on such a course as we have done - the road to nowhere other than pain.

so the EU wouldn't entertain our suggestions and as a result we decided to leave and its still not the fault of your beloved EU.

I seriously think you need help

 

[Hobbit]

so the EU wouldn't entertain our suggestions and as a result we decided to leave and its still not the fault of your beloved EU.

I seriously think you need help

I’ll agree wholeheartedly with your last sentence.

@Hogie, there is no blame on the UK or the EU for our actions, or CHOICE. We’re leaving and there is a consequence to that. We want to mitigate the changes on trade, and the EU want a big lump sum to mitigate their budget deficit, and that also want to protect their 4 principals. That’s their choice.

The UK have offered no hard border, and that trade is tracked electronically. The EU are the ones saying no, no to everything.

But it if you want to apportion blame, how about blaming the EU for not offering something that would have seen Remain winning. How about blaming the EU for their insistence that there will be a hard border.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I’ll agree wholeheartedly with your last sentence.

@Hogie, there is no blame on the UK or the EU for our actions, or CHOICE. We’re leaving and there is a consequence to that. We want to mitigate the changes on trade, and the EU want a big lump sum to mitigate their budget deficit, and that also want to protect their 4 principals. That’s their choice.

The UK have offered no hard border, and that trade is tracked electronically. The EU are the ones saying no, no to everything.

But it if you want to apportion blame, how about blaming the EU for not offering something that would have seen Remain winning. How about blaming the EU for their insistence that there will be a hard border.

Indeed - of course the EU has some part in this whole mess.

But the responsibility for the current situation and uncertainty around the border is 100% with the UK as we chose to pull out and May put a red line down in respect of the Customs Union. And when we voted to leave we KNEW (of course we all did) of the problems that would arise in respect of the boundary - and when May put down the CU Red Line - we KNEW that this would make things even worse. We all KNEW these things. Of course we did.

And when by a small majority the electorate voted to leave - that electorate KNEW that the EU had it's own Red Lines - and that when May subsequently laid down hers we KNEW that hers and the EUs were mutually exclusive.

And of course I could not suggest that we did not know any of these things.

 

[Hobbit]

Indeed - of course the EU has some part in this whole mess.

But the responsibility for the current situation and uncertainty around the border is 100% with the UK as we chose to pull out and May put a red line down in respect of the Customs Union. And when we voted to leave we KNEW (of course we all did) of the problems that would arise in respect of the boundary - and when May put down the CU Red Line - we KNEW that this would make things even worse. We all KNEW these things. Of course we did.

And when by a small majority the electorate voted to leave - that electorate KNEW that the EU had it's own Red Lines - and that when May subsequently laid down hers we KNEW that hers and the EUs were mutually exclusive.

And of course I could not suggest that we did not know any of these things.

It is not 100% with the UK. We chose to pull out. Its up to both sides to find a workable solution. Most importantly, the EU has a Regulation, Article 50, that allows members to leave. Its in the best interests of both sides to work together to find the best working solution for a post-leave relationship.

Anyone who didn't know there would be problems in leaving is naive. There was always going to be political problems, and there was always going to be trade problems.

The border issue in Ireland is being made 10x worse by the EU insisting on the hard border, with border crossings, if the UK refuses to put a border down the Irish Sea. The longstanding CTA, which Ireland deliberately kept on the books ensures the freedom of movement across the border for people. And the electronic solution to trade, which already exists between the EU and Norway/Switzerland. The EU are being downright awkward to the point of being nasty by not recognising the solution already exists and it is an absolute disgrace that they are playing with fire over the Good Friday Agreement - I feel they are the lowest of the low for that. But of course you will, as always, side with the EU and criticise the UK over the border issue.

I suggest you Youtube the vid of Mogg questioning Verhofstadt at the Commons Select committee. I don't like Mogg but he well and truly nailed Verhofstadt over the EU's ability to drop their Red Lines, as you call them, when it suits. Mogg even provided examples. If you can't see there is latitude, if the EU bends a little, then I'm genuinely sorry for your continued blinkered inability to see beyond you absolute desire for the UK to fail in achieving its aims.

I agree with May's red lines... we are either in or out. Quite how that stacks up is down to the negotiated settlement. Don't forget, the EU will have a £9.5bn black hole in its budget. And with the proposed budget from the EU that is due to run from 2020, they will have a £22bn black hole. That's right, £22bn!!!! That's what they propose to put the UK's contribution up to. And add to that the commitment to a new EU army, and a new EU Chancellor that will vet all national budgets.

I want to Remain, but under a EU that isn't a federal superstate.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Well it looks like everything is going to be hunky dory after all.
20 to 7 in favour of May's proposals, thank goodness for that.


So long as the EU agree of course

 

[ColchesterFC]

Well it looks like everything is going to be hunky dory after all.
20 to 7 in favour of May's proposals, thank goodness for that.


So long as the EU agree of course

Hasn't Barnier already rejected it? And that's before it was even published. I've got a bad feeling we could be heading for a hard Brexit as the stance of the EU seems to be to reject any solution or idea the UK comes up with. It's not so much a negotiation as the UK coming up with a series of plans and the EU simply saying no to them.

 

[chrisd]

Indeed - of course the EU has some part in this whole mess.

But the responsibility for the current situation and uncertainty around the border is 100% with the UK as we chose to pull out and May put a red line down in respect of the Customs Union. And when we voted to leave we KNEW (of course we all did) of the problems that would arise in respect of the boundary - and when May put down the CU Red Line - we KNEW that this would make things even worse. We all KNEW these things. Of course we did.

And when by a small majority the electorate voted to leave - that electorate KNEW that the EU had it's own Red Lines - and that when May subsequently laid down hers we KNEW that hers and the EUs were mutually exclusive.

And of course I could not suggest that we did not know any of these things.

Personally the more I read this crap the more I'm glad I voted to leave 😁

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Hasn't Barnier already rejected it? And that's before it was even published. I've got a bad feeling we could be heading for a hard Brexit as the stance of the EU seems to be to reject any solution or idea the UK comes up with. It's not so much a negotiation as the UK coming up with a series of plans and the EU simply saying no to them.

erm….as far as I am aware the UK has not come up with ANY proposals up until now, so how could they be rejected.


Before the start of negotiations Barnier said 'no cherry picking'.
Quite understandable from the EU27 point of view.

It was pretty obvious to many that this would be a costly brain fart from the UK.

 

[ColchesterFC]

erm….as far as I am aware the UK has not come up with ANY proposals up until now, so how could they be rejected.

What about the "customs partnership" where the UK would collect tariffs on behalf of the EU and then pass them on or "max-fac" as a solution to the issue with the Irish border? Both of those proposals were dismissed by the EU and I'm sure if I can be bothered to look there will be others as well.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...posals-and-says-brexit-talks-could-still-fail

 

[Doon frae Troon]

What about the "customs partnership" where the UK would collect tariffs on behalf of the EU and then pass them on or "max-fac" as a solution to the issue with the Irish border? Both of those proposals were dismissed by the EU and I'm sure if I can be bothered to look there will be others as well.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...posals-and-says-brexit-talks-could-still-fail

I thought it was Arlene who dismissed the Irish Border solution.

BTW ..brilliant move by May to put the local Taxi firm's No on the briefing notes for those who may not have their ministerial car available in the morning.:whoo:

 

[Dellboy]

Doesn’t matter if the EU reject this white paper or not ( I believe they will) now Labour say they will vote against it and with up to 40 from her own side against it, can't see it getting voted through here in October.

No Deal here we come :whoo: