The Brexit Irish Border Solution

[Lord Tyrion]

Ireland wasn't in the EU!

That's the point of the question. Before Ireland joined the EU / EEC, whatever term you like to use, how did the border situation work?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

That's the point of the question. Before Ireland joined the EU / EEC, whatever term you like to use, how did the border situation work?

I do not really know exactly how, but I suspect that it worked because Ireland was happy to pretty much align it's own trading legislation with the UK's, and happy to accept imports from the UK based upon the UK standards where they differed from Irelands. Also I suspect that in many areas where to today there is essential legislation - back before Ireland and the UK joined the EU (and no surprise that we joined together) - the legislation was a lot less and controls were much more lax.

And we shouldn't forget that when ireland joined the EEC it had an antiquated, agriculture dependent economy

https://ec.europa.eu/ireland/about-us/impact-of-EU-membership-on-Ireland_en

 

[Doon frae Troon]

In a moment of brilliance (please excuse my modesty) I have come up with the answer to this problem.......

Northern Ireland remains in the EU and Scotland remains in the UK.

Not very groundbreaking so far, I'll admit, but next all of the Scots that want to remain in the EU move to Northern Ireland, and all of the Northern Irish that want to stay as part of the UK and leave the EU move to Scotland. In effect Scotland becomes Northern Ireland and Northern Ireland becomes Scotland. They could even change the names of the two countries to reflect this. Both countries have good golf courses and make whiskey so it's a decent trade off. And it ends any issues over the Good Friday agreement because there is no longer a border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. Any English or Welsh residents that wish to remain in the EU could also move to what was Northern Ireland and it eases the problems of overcrowding and pressure on public services in England. And we can then go for the plan the EU like which is to have the border in the Irish Sea.

I think that you'll all have to admit that my solution is genius. :thup:

Ethnic cleansing, looks like the Leavers have picked up on what the British Empire was renowned for.
Brexit bingo denotes that they will be slavering on about the war next.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

What about the Scots that voted no to independence? Oh that’s right, they get ignored.

Not really as many have changed their minds since 2014 following the dissolving of the Vow and the introduction of the English Parliament in Westminster. The appalling treatment of Scottish MP's at Westminster. The weasel words and lies of the Leave campaign on devolved Scottish issues. Oh and the threats to close down the Scottish Parliament.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Not really as many have changed their minds since 2014 following the dissolving of the Vow and the introduction of the English Parliament in Westminster. The appalling treatment of Scottish MP's at Westminster. The weasel words and lies of the Leave campaign on devolved Scottish issues. Oh and the threats to close down the Scottish Parliament.

Opinion polls don’t seem to agree with that theory

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_on_Scottish_independence

There are article after article that suggest that there has been no extra momentum towards Scotland’s Independence hence why there won’t be another vote in the near future because a second No would just kill it for decades upon decades

But what does it have to do with Brexit and the Irish border ?

 

[Hobbit]

Opinion polls don’t seem to agree with that theory

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_on_Scottish_independence

There are article after article that suggest that there has been no extra momentum towards Scotland’s Independence hence why there won’t be another vote in the near future because a second No would just kill it for decades upon decades

But what does it have to do with Brexit and the Irish border ?

An aggregation of 43 polls, as of the end of May, shows no at 53%, yes at 44% and don’t know at 9%. It also shows an increasing trend to vote no.

I guess it’s safe to say that a percentage of the don’t knows would also vote no.

 

[ColchesterFC]

Ethnic cleansing, looks like the Leavers have picked up on what the British Empire was renowned for.
Brexit bingo denotes that they will be slavering on about the war next.

Trotting out your usual nonsense again Doom. Unless you are able to point out in my original post where I suggested "expulsion or killing of members of one ethnic or religious group". What I suggested was a country swap with those wanting to move to do so. Perhaps you could highlight where I said they would be forced to move or killed if they didn't. The Scotch (I've done that deliberately just to annoy you) are not a "religious" or an "ethnic" group so even if I did suggest killing the lot of you it still wouldn't be ethnic cleansing (definition below for you as you clearly have no idea what ethnic cleansing is).

And I was on the side of Remain in the referendum, as I've stated on several previous occasions, but don't let that get in the way of one of your usual petty and snide digs at those that voted to Leave.



ethnic cleansing
noun
[COLOR=#878787 !important][/COLOR]

• the mass expulsion or killing of members of one ethnic or religious group in an area by those of another.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  

 

[Doon frae Troon]

An aggregation of 43 polls, as of the end of May, shows no at 53%, yes at 44% and don’t know at 9%. It also shows an increasing trend to vote no.

I guess it’s safe to say that a percentage of the don’t knows would also vote no.

Many exclude the 16-18 year old vote though......why is that do you think.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Opinion polls don’t seem to agree with that theory

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_on_Scottish_independence

But what does it have to do with Brexit and the Irish border ?

I was replyng to Hobbits post, you should try it sometimes:lol:

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Many exclude the 16-18 year old vote though......why is that do you think.

I was replyng to Hobbits post, you should try it sometimes:lol:

That give you the chance to ignore the facts though doesn’t it

Am I not allowed to answer your post ? It’s an open forum and when you post something that clearly seems incorrect then someone will as per usual challenge it and as per usual you will gloss over it

You posted suggesting there has been a change in regards people wanting an independent Scotland - the various polls from multiple areas show that you are wrong and in fact there has been a slight change in the No vote - so what does that say about your theory ?

 

[KenL]

Not really as many have changed their minds since 2014 following the dissolving of the Vow and the introduction of the English Parliament in Westminster. The appalling treatment of Scottish MP's at Westminster. The weasel words and lies of the Leave campaign on devolved Scottish issues. Oh and the threats to close down the Scottish Parliament.

This is absolute nonsense. Best ignored!

 

[MarkE]

Why is the Irish border a UK problem. It's an EU border as well so why are'nt they coming up with anything constructive.

 

[drdel]

Why is the Irish border a UK problem. It's an EU border as well so why are'nt they coming up with anything constructive.

Because the EU style is (above all cost) do nothing and decide nothing. If you do nothing you can never be wrong,

So from Juncker and Barnier and the restl we can expect they will disagree with UK suggestions rather than make any constructive commentary. In that way none of the remaining members can criticise and their noses stay in the trough because the jobs are safe/

 

[Hobbit]

That give you the chance to ignore the facts though doesn’t it

Am I not allowed to answer your post ? It’s an open forum and when you post something that clearly seems incorrect then someone will as per usual challenge it and as per usual you will gloss over it

You posted suggesting there has been a change in regards people wanting an independent Scotland - the various polls from multiple areas show that you are wrong and in fact there has been a slight change in the No vote - so what does that say about your theory ?

If you really do the maths on the polls, and also exclude anomalies as you are supposed to do, you will find that yes has gone up by 0.4% and no has gone up by 1.2%, as the don’t knows have gone down. In effect, more of the don’t knows are shifting to no.

If you then, as Doon suggests, factor in the 16 to 18 year old you find that the final figures end up exceptionally close to the result of the last indeyref vote.

The indeys trot out the same level of spin as both Remain and Leave, and similar to when they had the last vote but in reality there’s no change.

However, if you look at the 3 blips when a yes vote would have been too close to call either way you get a sense of what can cause a blip. I’d say the SNP’s best chance of a win is to hold the vote a month after Brexit.

 

[KenL]

I very much hope the (my) UK government do not allow another referendum, especially on the SNPs terms.

I would expect that it would fail again. But I (and many people i know) found the last time pretty stressful.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

I very much hope the (my) UK government do not allow another referendum, especially on the SNPs terms.

I would expect that it would fail again. But I (and many people i know) found the last time pretty stressful.

The age demographics of Scottish independence support shows that independence is more or less inevitable, sooner or later.
Better start getting used to it.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

If you really do the maths on the polls, and also exclude anomalies as you are supposed to do, you will find that yes has gone up by 0.4% and no has gone up by 1.2%, as the don’t knows have gone down. In effect, more of the don’t knows are shifting to no.

If you then, as Doon suggests, factor in the 16 to 18 year old you find that the final figures end up exceptionally close to the result of the last indeyref vote.

The indeys trot out the same level of spin as both Remain and Leave, and similar to when they had the last vote but in reality there’s no change.

However, if you look at the 3 blips when a yes vote would have been too close to call either way you get a sense of what can cause a blip. I’d say the SNP’s best chance of a win is to hold the vote a month after Brexit.

Independence support started at 34% in 2014.
It rose rapidly in a few months to between 45-51% just before the referendum
Two big surges in SNP membership after EVEL and the latest Westminster snub to all Scottish MP's [-13 Tories]


Just read through the record of the SNP/Green Governments and compare it to that of England/Wales/and NI.
I am certain all three other components of the UK would be proud to achieve such progress.
https://www.snp.org/record

 

[Deleted member 15344]

The age demographics of Scottish independence support shows that independence is more or less inevitable, sooner or later.
Better start getting used to it.

Sorry but you have nothing to back that up - you have been shown opinion polls about the current feeling and the feeling since the last Independence and they don’t back up your stance - in fact it seems your Scotland have a stronger want to be part of the UK - unless you would like to provide some proof that shows the polls are wrong ? ( polls that you posted up when there was a slight swing in favour but don’t seem to when it goes the other way

 

[Hobbit]

Independence support started at 34% in 2014.
It rose rapidly in a few months to between 45-51% just before the referendum
Two big surges in SNP membership after EVEL and the latest Westminster snub to all Scottish MP's [-13 Tories]


Just read through the record of the SNP/Green Governments and compare it to that of England/Wales/and NI.
I am certain all three other components of the UK would be proud to achieve such progress.
https://www.snp.org/record

It started at 26% and would have probably succeeded if Gordon Brown hadn't made that final (death knell) speech in support of the "No" campaign.

People responded to a very active "Yes" campaign - as we saw with the Brexit campaign, positive campaigning makes a difference.

As for believing the SNP's own propaganda... don't be silly. Both the SNHS and education has taken a massive dip in performance in the last 3 years. Wow, childcare up to 16 hours, double wow! You do realise that free childcare is up to 30 hours a week in England and Wales, and you also have the option to mix and max the hours to suit. "Crime rates are down in Scotland..." Look at the changes in how crime is now recorded before you beat a drum about the reduction in crime. Violent crime(+5%) and sexual crime(+6%) has increased significantly in Scotland but theft and vandalism is down. Wow, breaking a window has helped reduce crime but the more serious crimes are equated to breaking a window..... an some people are foolish enough to think the SNP are doing a good job.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Why is the Irish border a UK problem. It's an EU border as well so why are'nt they coming up with anything constructive.

Because if I destabilise something by my actions against the wishes of others I have been in partnership with, I might be expected to put something else in place acceptable to my erstwhile partners to mitigate the consequences of my actions. And if I do nothing or my ideas are not acceptable, then I cannot complain if the partners do whatever they need to do to stabilise the situation - and that may not suit me.

But I initiated the instability through my actions and I precipitated what my partners had to do. I might contend that I am blameless and complain at the pain that I am now suffering as a result of my erstwhile partners stabilising actions - but I am not blameless - I am complicit - I am the author of my own discomfort.