Teeing Ground and Advice

[Matty]

I'm just reflecting on a recent round of golf and wondering what the right thing to do was.

Stroke play Stableford competition and we were playing a three ball, two off yellow tees and one of us off the red tees. Honour fell so tee order was yellow-red-yellow and the two tees were a better of yards apart so we played in that order.

When if was the turn of the final player to tee of, they started to tee the ball up between the red markers where the previous player had correctly played from, when they should have played from the yellow markers.

So, at that point, I'm standing there wondering what to do. I can see the error about to happen. If the stroke is played it's a 2 stroke penalty provided it is corrected before the next hole being started. At what point am I supposed to say something?

If I comment before the stroke is played is that advice? It must be as it avoids the penalty and affects the next stroke played - right? If I says '2 stroke penalty' after the stroke is played, the player may well avoid a DQ so is that advice too? Am I supposed to stay silent until the end of the round and then call a DQ? That seems very unsportsmanlike to me but then I don't want to give advice and risk a DQ myself.

As it turns out, this was all irrelevant as all three of us were DQ's anyway for not putting out in a stroke play event - it was raining heavily and several greens was waterlogged with the cups full of water - but the committee didn't intervene and we didn't know we could walk off the course and seek a ruling.

All in all I'm bit annoyed to say the least as I played my best ever and had finished second before the DQ - but you live and learn - I won't make the same mistake again.

 

[Maninblack4612]

Neither of the things you mention constitute advice. Hard to understand how anyone could think that a score made without holing out could count. We're supposed to be playing ready golf, the lady should have teed off last.

 

[clubchamp98]

I'm just reflecting on a recent round of golf and wondering what the right thing to do was.

Stroke play Stableford competition and we were playing a three ball, two off yellow tees and one of us off the red tees. Honour fell so tee order was yellow-red-yellow and the two tees were a better of yards apart so we played in that order.

When if was the turn of the final player to tee of, they started to tee the ball up between the red markers where the previous player had correctly played from, when they should have played from the yellow markers.

So, at that point, I'm standing there wondering what to do. I can see the error about to happen. If the stroke is played it's a 2 stroke penalty provided it is corrected before the next hole being started. At what point am I supposed to say something?

If I comment before the stroke is played is that advice? It must be as it avoids the penalty and affects the next stroke played - right? If I says '2 stroke penalty' after the stroke is played, the player may well avoid a DQ so is that advice too? Am I supposed to stay silent until the end of the round and then call a DQ? That seems very unsportsmanlike to me but then I don't want to give advice and risk a DQ myself.

As it turns out, this was all irrelevant as all three of us were DQ's anyway for not putting out in a stroke play event - it was raining heavily and several greens was waterlogged with the cups full of water - but the committee didn't intervene and we didn't know we could walk off the course and seek a ruling.

All in all I'm bit annoyed to say the least as I played my best ever and had finished second before the DQ - but you live and learn - I won't make the same mistake again.

very basic and you should know the rules on this.
If somebody is teeing up on the wrong tee just tell them.!
Not putting out in stableford just gives you an NR on that hole surley not a DQ.
What did you put on the card.

 

[KenL]

You do not need to hole out in a stableford comp - I usually pick up if I can't score to help pace of play.

You can't be DQ'd for not holing out in an ordinary strokeplay either unless of course you actually recorded a score and not NR for that hole.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

You do not need to hole out in a stableford comp - I usually pick up if I can't score to help pace of play.

You can't be DQ'd for not holing out in an ordinary strokeplay either unless of course you actually recorded a score and not NR for that hole.

So is referring to a strokeplay stableford competition not a combination of mutually exclusives.

In Strokeplay it is the number of strokes taken in total that matters, and players must hole out on every hole. In Stableford we total the points scored on each hole - and the actual final number of strokes taken on a hole doesn't matter once you can't score a point - and you don't have to hole out (you just don't score any points if that's what you do)?

Only mention this as referring to a stableford comp in this way risks introducing confusion as some rules and actions are different between strokeplay and stableford.

 

[Matty]

I don’t really need an answer about not holing out. That’s already been covered locally and despite how obvious it may seem now, the three of us clearly didn’t know at the time what the procedure was when the green was waterlogged and the ball is on the lip of a hole filled with rain water. We were DQd as the breach only became apparent two days later.

I’m still not clear on why telling someone they are about to play a stroke outside the teeing area is within the rules. The definitions of advice says and counsel or suggestion that could influence a player in determining his play.

Or is this deemed informTion on rules - as in you’re going to break on. But in competition, and if I’m super competitive person, why should and would I say something until it’s too late? Apart from it not being very sporting? (I did speak up and in so doing saved a 2 stoke penalty FYI).

 

[Lord Tyrion]

But in competition, and if I’m super competitive person, why should and would I say something until it’s too late? Apart from it not being very sporting? (I did speak up and in so doing saved a 2 stoke penalty FYI).

Do you want other players to play with you again? Do you want an enjoyable round or an atmosphere like the Arctic? You are not playing a professional tournament, it is supposed to be fun. Competitive yes but still fun.

 

[clubchamp98]

Do you want other players to play with you again? Do you want an enjoyable round or an atmosphere like the Arctic? You are not playing a professional tournament, it is supposed to be fun. Competitive yes but still fun.

Agree I would never let a PP or OP play a shot if I knew he would be breaking the rules.
Advice is something he would gain an advantage from ,
Common cursety to stop him before he breaks rule.

Can you see his reaction if you say to him” Oh yes I knew you were going to do that and get a two shot pen , but I never stopped you “

At what time would be appropriate to tell him?.

 

[Matty]

At what time would be appropriate to tell him?.

And that is my question. Rather than opinions please direct me to rules and decisions that say it’s okay to “ advise” someone they are about to break the rules if that play a shot.

As I said above I DID stop him but how is he not gaining and advantage from my comment as he’s otherwise get a 2 stroke penalty? Is that not an advantage to his ultimate score, not having that penalty on there?!?

 

[Beedee]

I've always understood this one as "facts are not advice".

So, "you're 145 yards from the centre of the green" is a fact, not advice and totally legal. It would apply to any golfer at any time in that position. "you're 145 yards away from the centre of the green - hit an 8 iron" is advice.

In this case "you standing on the red tee" is a fact and telling someone a fact is fine.

I could be wrong tho, and certainly can't quite chapter and verse.

 

[Slab]

I'm sure the 'proper' sites will have it too but its referenced here by a rules expert http://www.barryrhodes.com/2018/03/information-on-rules-is-not-advice.html

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I don’t really need an answer about not holing out. That’s already been covered locally and despite how obvious it may seem now, the three of us clearly didn’t know at the time what the procedure was when the green was waterlogged and the ball is on the lip of a hole filled with rain water. We were DQd as the breach only became apparent two days later.

I’m still not clear on why telling someone they are about to play a stroke outside the teeing area is within the rules. The definitions of advice says and counsel or suggestion that could influence a player in determining his play.

Or is this deemed informTion on rules - as in you’re going to break on. But in competition, and if I’m super competitive person, why should and would I say something until it’s too late? Apart from it not being very sporting? (I did speak up and in so doing saved a 2 stoke penalty FYI).

You are providing factual information on the rules. You don't have to say anything, but I'd say that it's not really in the spirit of the game to knowingly let someone break a rule by mistake. Besides, I like to think of golf as about how well I play - so in a match I don't wish bad luck or a missed putt on an opponent - and likewise will warn someone if they are about to break a rule. When I stand on the 1st tee of a match and wish my opponent 'good luck' - I mean it.

And I see a significant difference between a player gaining an advantage and him suffering a penalty

 

[Matty]

Okay, so if I say “I wouldn’t play from there if I was you” that could be advice. But if I say “you’re on the wrong tee” that’s factual but not advice. Does that sound about right?

 

[Colin L]

Okay, so if I say “I wouldn’t play from there if I was you” that could be advice. But if I say “you’re on the wrong tee” that’s factual but not advice. Does that sound about right?

No it doesn't! You're making far too much of a simple situation. Telling/advising a fellow competitor he is about to breach a rule is not advice in terms of the Definition of advice which says, "Information on the Rules ..... is not advice". Telling someone he is about the breach a Rule is information on that Rule.

If you want anything further from the Rules, read through the first two paragraphs of the Etiquette section. For example, "The overriding principle is that consideration should be shown to others on the course at all times." And, "All players should conduct themselves in a disciplined manner, demonstrating courtesy and sportsmanship at all times".

Deliberately failing to alert another player that he is about the breach a Rule would be inconsiderate, discourteous and unsportsmanlike.

 

[Foxholer]

So is referring to a strokeplay stableford competition not a combination of mutually exclusives.
...

No!

As per The Rules (http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!rule-32) Stableford is a form of Stroke Play! The alternative (to Stroke Play) is Match Play!

 

[Foxholer]

No it doesn't! You're making far too much of a simple situation. Telling/advising a fellow competitor he is about to breach a rule is not advice in terms of the Definition of advice which says, "Information on the Rules ..... is not advice". Telling someone he is about the breach a Rule is information on that Rule.

If you want anything further from the Rules, read through the first two paragraphs of the Etiquette section. For example, "The overriding principle is that consideration should be shown to others on the course at all times." And, "All players should conduct themselves in a disciplined manner, demonstrating courtesy and sportsmanship at all times".

Deliberately failing to alert another player that he is about the breach a Rule would be inconsiderate, discourteous and unsportsmanlike.

Same applies if you have noticed that a FC (or Opponent for that matter) has teed it in front of the Teeing Ground!

 

[Colin L]

Same applies if you have noticed that a FC (or Opponent for that matter) has teed it in front of the Teeing Ground!

I thought that was exactly what the OP was talking about.

 

[Foxholer]

I thought that was exactly what the OP was talking about.

:rofl: Good point - though it's a 'special case' of that, being on a completely different tee!

I was simply referring to the ball being a few inches in front of the 'correct' tee!

 

[Colin L]

Well, to split a hair even further, in front of is in front of whatever the distance.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

No it doesn't! You're making far too much of a simple situation. Telling/advising a fellow competitor he is about to breach a rule is not advice in terms of the Definition of advice which says, "Information on the Rules ..... is not advice". Telling someone he is about the breach a Rule is information on that Rule.

If you want anything further from the Rules, read through the first two paragraphs of the Etiquette section. For example, "The overriding principle is that consideration should be shown to others on the course at all times." And, "All players should conduct themselves in a disciplined manner, demonstrating courtesy and sportsmanship at all times".

Deliberately failing to alert another player that he is about the breach a Rule would be inconsiderate, discourteous and unsportsmanlike.

tsk - that's the problem with golf etiquette - too fussy and rooted in the past - not recognising the changing face of the game and need to attract a new generation of golfers