Tee off time

[chrisd]

In the final round of a 4 round better ball Stableford competition the players are allocated tee off times. Both players of one pair turn up on time and one player of the other pair. The club pro, having received a call from the other player stating that he will be a little late due to car problems, tells the 3 players that he will move their tee time back by 15 minutes. No one queries this instruction and he duly arrives and they start on the new time. At the end of the round the pair who had the late player win the competition but a complaint is lodged that they shouldn't have teed off late and the late player would only have been able to join the group after about 4 holes, his partner therefore having only to record his points as the better ball.

How would this complaint be decided?

 

[ScienceBoy]

In the final round of a 4 round better ball Stableford competition the players are allocated tee off times. Both players of one pair turn up on time and one player of the other pair. The club pro, having received a call from the other player stating that he will be a little late due to car problems, tells the 3 players that he will move their tee time back by 15 minutes. No one queries this instruction and he duly arrives and they start on the new time. At the end of the round the pair who had the late player win the competition but a complaint is lodged that they shouldn't have teed off late and the late player would only have been able to join the group after about 4 holes, his partner therefore having only to record his points as the better ball.

How would this complaint be decided?

Seems fair, golf decided the outcome, not timekeeping.

If no contact had been made with the late player then the game should have continued at the allotted time.

I know where my vote would go if it was up to a poll but if rules had been decided and communicated/agreed by all members of the club then they all should accept any resulting penalties.

So what I am saying comes down to how decisions are made at the particular club in question?

 

[chrisd]

Seems fair, golf decided the outcome, not timekeeping.

If no contact had been made with the late player then the game should have continued at the allotted time.

I know where my vote would go if it was up to a poll but if rules had been decided and communicated/agreed by all members of the club then they all should accept any resulting penalties.

So what I am saying comes down to how decisions are made at the particular club in questioon?

Thanks SB, but its a real situation and I'm looking for the definitive answer if there is one.

 

[rulefan]

The club pro, having received a call from the other player stating that he will be a little late due to car problems, tells the 3 players that he will move their tee time back by 15 minutes.

Had the pro got the authority of the Committee to make such a decision? Was he in fact on the competition committee?

At the end of the round the pair who had the late player win the competition but a complaint is lodged

Had the competition been closed when the complaint was made?

 

[chrisd]

Had the pro got the authority of the Committee to make such a decision? Was he in fact on the competition committee?



Had the competition been closed when the complaint was made?

The pro, in actual fact was the assistant. I doubt he was on the committee but as the pro shop handles matters on the day would they be acting "for, and, on behalf of the committee" where decisions need to be made? It could have been frosty and the pro delayed tee offs for a period, as the only person of authority (?) on site to decide. If he doesn't act in some position of responsibility then groups may be required to start, say, in dense fog unless a committee member is present?

I think that the complaint was made before the comp was closed

 

[BTatHome]

Sounds like sour grapes if nobody queried it at the time of the decision !

Also 15 mins delay, and 4 holes excluded from his score .... wow those guys must bequick around the course, or maybe that was the point turned for them to win

 

[Region3]

This is NOT my take on the rules, but just my opinion.

Why not state at the start that they weren't happy waiting 15 minutes to play rather than wait until they've lost to moan about it?
Sorry, but it just seems petty to me to try to win on a technicality after you've lost playing golf.

As SB said, golf decided the winners so leave it be.

 

[chrisd]

Sounds like sour grapes if nobody queried it at the time of the decision !

Also 15 mins delay, and 4 holes excluded from his score .... wow those guys must bequick around the course, or maybe that was the point turned for them to win

I think that it was queried when it became known at the end of the round and the complaint was made by players who would be adversely affected if the rules of golf wern't adhered too - so, that's reasonable I would think.

I said 4 holes as the player would have had to arrive, get gear out and make his way through other players on the course and he could only join on the next tee if, say the 3rd hole was in progress. With a short par 3 as one of the holes, I think it could easily be hole 4 that he could join in on

 

[doublebogey7]

In the final round of a 4 round better ball Stableford competition the players are allocated tee off times. Both players of one pair turn up on time and one player of the other pair. The club pro, having received a call from the other player stating that he will be a little late due to car problems, tells the 3 players that he will move their tee time back by 15 minutes. No one queries this instruction and he duly arrives and they start on the new time. At the end of the round the pair who had the late player win the competition but a complaint is lodged that they shouldn't have teed off late and the late player would only have been able to join the group after about 4 holes, his partner therefore having only to record his points as the better ball.

How would this complaint be decided?

It is not clear whether this is match play or stroke play. Would suggest that if match play then the complaint should have been made at tee off, but if stroke play then this would not be possible as not all competitors would be aware of the delay.

Then whether to uphold the complaint would depend on whether the assistant was acting on behalf of the committee. It does though seem a dangerous president to set allowing late players simply to move their tee times.

 

[chrisd]

This is NOT my take on the rules, but just my opinion.

Why not state at the start that they weren't happy waiting 15 minutes to play rather than wait until they've lost to moan about it?
Sorry, but it just seems petty to me to try to win on a technicality after you've lost playing golf.

As SB said, golf decided the winners so leave it be.

The players that I am asking on behalf of we're happy to let the golf decide, it was others who complained, but as both pairs have been penalised I said that I would look and see if the rules have been correctly applied - no one is getting uptight, it's just best to learn from a mistake if one as been made

 

[chrisd]

It is not clear whether this is match play or stroke play. Would suggest that if match play then the complaint should have been made at tee off, but if stroke play then this would not be possible as not all competitors would be aware of the delay.

Then whether to uphold the complaint would depend on whether the assistant was acting on behalf of the committee. It does though seem a dangerous president to set allowing late players simply to move their tee times.

It was 4bbb Stableford - it can't be match play

The players didn't move their tee times they were moved by the Pro

 

[MashieNiblick]

This is tricky.

Start times are decided by the Committee - Rule 33-3

I think this may depend on what the pro's status is. If he was the effectively acting as the Committee, did he have authority or justification to establish a new Starting time?

If not I think the complaint is valid.

One for the big boys!

 

[CMAC]

It is not clear whether this is match play or stroke play. .

the OP states it was Stableford!

Def sounds like sour grapes, if he's late and you werent happy you could have insisted to tee off.

Personally I would have been happy to wait 15 mins - as we all get held up - and let the golf do the talking. They lost then appeal on a technicality.............that's just not cricket IMO:smirk:

 

[BTatHome]

Our pro is part of the comps committee, as such I would of thought that if your assistant pro was the only guy there on the morning then he would have the authority (effectively on the pro's behalf) to make such amendments ... certainly would be like that at our place.

 

[Colin L]

It is not clear whether this is match play or stroke play.

It was stated to be a Stableford competition, so we are talking of stroke play.

The essential question as is being discussed, is whether the pro, as the Starter is acting on behalf of the Commmittee and that his decisions are therefore Committee decisions. If so, the matter seems clear. The player was in time for the delayed start as set by the Starter and was not in breach of Rule 6-3. See Decision 6-3a/4:

Q.A player is assigned by the Committee to a group with a 9:00 am starting time. He arrives at the 1st tee at 9:06 am but for whatever reason (e.g., weather, slow play or a ruling) the starting time has been delayed until after he arrives. What is the ruling?

A.As the group was unable to start at the time originally established by the Committee and the player arrived before it could do so, the player is not in breach of Rule 6-3a.

If the starter did not have the authority and the original time on the sheet has to stand, there is a considerable mess to sort out and I don't have time at the moment to explore that - due on the golf course soon

 

[doublebogey7]

It was 4bbb Stableford - it can't be match play

The players didn't move their tee times they were moved by the Pro

Sorry missed the Stableford bit, must read more carefully.

I was trying to make the point (badly) that if tee times are moved due to a late arrival then this could lead to problems in the future i.e. what would happen if a player rang and said they were going to be delayed by an hour, 2 hours, 3 hours etc.

 

[chrisd]

This is tricky.

Start times are decided by the Committee - Rule 33-3

I think this may depend on what the pro's status is. If he was the effectively acting as the Committee, did he have authority or justification to establish a new Starting time?

If not I think the complaint is valid.

One for the big boys!

That's where I came in Mashie.

At my club the pro sometimes changes start times and groups to facilitate players, where say, one player withdraws on the morning of the comp, he may phone a reserve and then move a start time to allow him to arrive and get to the tee. All very amicable and fair.

The main problem with this club and what happened is that no one including the pro seemed to know the rules pertaining to start times and my mate and his partner were trying to be fair on the day, they could easily have said "sorry it will make me late for dinner" and insisted on the start time as scheduled. Our club pro is actually seconded to the Golf Committee but this clubs one may not be, I don't know

 

[Colin L]

I couldn't agree more that it was a bad decision on the part of the Starter.

 

[Imurg]

This is always one of the rules that annoys me.
Yes the Rules state you have to tee off at the set time, not before, not after and if you're not there then you get a penalty etc etc
This Rule, for me, is aimed fairly and squarely at the Pros and Elite Amateur events.
Why does it really matter if you have to swap tee times around to accomodate someone being caught in traffic...
Is it such a big deal to just stand aside, let however many groups through until you're all able to go?
I suppose it may cause a slight issue with timings for everyone else but as tee slots are, what, 8-10 minutes apart it's not going to be that much of a pain.........

My thoughts on the OP - The Asst Pro, as the only authority figure available, is acting on behalf of the Committee. Otherwise you would have to have a Committee Member present during every hour of every competition to be able to make these rulings. Not feasible at 99% of clubs I suspect.

 

[chrisd]

It was stated to be a Stableford competition, so we are talking of stroke play.

The essential question as is being discussed, is whether the pro, as the Starter is acting on behalf of the Commmittee and that his decisions are therefore Committee decisions. If so, the matter seems clear. The player was in time for the delayed start as set by the Starter and was not in breach of Rule 6-3. See Decision 6-3a/4:

Q.A player is assigned by the Committee to a group with a 9:00 am starting time. He arrives at the 1st tee at 9:06 am but for whatever reason (e.g., weather, slow play or a ruling) the starting time has been delayed until after he arrives. What is the ruling?

A.As the group was unable to start at the time originally established by the Committee and the player arrived before it could do so, the player is not in breach of Rule 6-3a.

If the starter did not have the authority and the original time on the sheet has to stand, there is a considerable mess to sort out and I don't have time at the moment to explore that - due on the golf course soon

Agreed fully Colin that's my take on it. I would be pleased if you have any more thoughts after your round

Have a good one!