S
Snelly
Guest
This entire thread seems like a pedants paradise to me. Are any of you actually saying that you time how long it takes you or others to look for a ball?
Suspension of search.....
- Thread starter Imurg
- Start date
Imurg
The Grinder Of Pars (Semi Crocked)
I think it's the principle rather than anything else.
IF you were timing it, and I agree the majority don't time or even take 5 minutes, would you be able to add on the waiting time - that's the question.
Also, we should be timing the search. It's tricky to judge 5 minutes without a clock - how do you know you've not been searching for 6?
IF you were timing it, and I agree the majority don't time or even take 5 minutes, would you be able to add on the waiting time - that's the question.
Also, we should be timing the search. It's tricky to judge 5 minutes without a clock - how do you know you've not been searching for 6?
Foxholer
Blackballed
It's quite clear in The Rules - 3.3
http://www.randa.org/en/Rules-and-Amateur-Status/Rules-of-Golf.aspx#/rules/?ruleNum=3&subRuleNum=3
And it's not pedantry but, in comps, I always check the time when I start searching for the ball.
bobmac
Major Champion
How about this chaps.........
The 5 minute clock cannot be stopped unless there is a suspension of play
The player must not discontinue play unless:
(ii) he believes there is danger from lightning;
or
(iv) there is some other good reason (loophole)
I would say being hit, not by lightning but by a golf ball (which is a more common occurence) would be a good enough reason.
Therefor play IS suspended until the danger has passed.
Then the player can continue play and continue searching for his ball
The rules official is happy, the player is happy he gets his 5 minutes to search for his ball and a victory for common sense.
The 5 minute clock cannot be stopped unless there is a suspension of play
The player must not discontinue play unless:
(ii) he believes there is danger from lightning;
or
(iv) there is some other good reason (loophole)
I would say being hit, not by lightning but by a golf ball (which is a more common occurence) would be a good enough reason.
Therefor play IS suspended until the danger has passed.
Then the player can continue play and continue searching for his ball
The rules official is happy, the player is happy he gets his 5 minutes to search for his ball and a victory for common sense.
Colin L
Tour Winner
That's naughty, Bobmac. You haven't quoted in full and the missing bit is essential to interpreting what the Rule intends to say. In full, it reads,
Unless....
(iv) there is some other good reason such as sudden illness
To me, this illustrative point is meant to indicate events that are unexpected, unavoidable and which demand that some action be taken. It doesn't say to me that a routine matter like deciding whether to let the game behind play through is that kind of "good reason" which is why I haven't even mentioned it in my argument. It will be interesting, though, to hear if the R&A considers otherwise.
Unless....
(iv) there is some other good reason such as sudden illness
To me, this illustrative point is meant to indicate events that are unexpected, unavoidable and which demand that some action be taken. It doesn't say to me that a routine matter like deciding whether to let the game behind play through is that kind of "good reason" which is why I haven't even mentioned it in my argument. It will be interesting, though, to hear if the R&A considers otherwise.
bobmac
Major Champion
'Such as' would suggest there are other reason that would be taken into consideration.
Do you not agree that the wording would give a referee an amount of discretion in what he would consider to be a good reason to discontinue play? A loophole if you will?
S
Snelly
Guest
You don't. But even though it is a point of principle, I am surprised anyone is that bothered about this. Is there a penalty for taking 5 minutes and 1 second? Because that one second over is the same as taking 10 minutes if we operate strictly by the rules.
Is going over by a few seconds the same as kicking your ball into a better lie? If so, then I recall other threads like this where no agreement can be reached.
bobmac
Major Champion
Snelly, I think the point is while you're waiting for the group behind to play through, your 5 mins is still counting down so the chances are, while you're waiting, your 5 minutes will be over and you'll HAVE to go back and play another or play the provisional that you may have hit.
Colin L
Tour Winner
Of course it is intended to be illustrative of other kinds of situation which could allow players to discontinue play. But the nature of the situation used as an illustration is of one that is outwith the control of the players, one where something has to be done for the safety and wellbeing of a player as a result of an unexpected and uncontrollable event.
The situation we have been discussing is one in which the players are in control of the events. They have the choice of not waving the game behind through. Seems very different to me.
MashieNiblick
Tour Winner
I think this has been a really interesting thread. In most cases the pupose and application of a Rule is rational and fair. So when you stumble on something that seems at odds with that, I think it is worth discussing.
Thing is it isn't hypothetical. A lot of holes have rough in front of the tee. If you duff your drive 50 yards into that, start looking for a minute, then stop to let the group behind through, common sense and fairness would suggest that when they have gone you still have the time remaining to search. I imagine most people would assume that is allowed. However the Rules as written don't seem to support that view. It seems funny it hasn't come up and been ruled on. Maybe that is why the pros on Tour don't let players through when they lose a ball.
We can't expect a Rule change anytime soon but I don't see why at that time there can't be an exception included to allow a search to be suspended for safety reasons to let following players through and resumed when it's all clear as long as the total time spent searching doesn't exceed 5 minutes.
In the meantime we await the R&A's reply to PalindromicBob.
Thing is it isn't hypothetical. A lot of holes have rough in front of the tee. If you duff your drive 50 yards into that, start looking for a minute, then stop to let the group behind through, common sense and fairness would suggest that when they have gone you still have the time remaining to search. I imagine most people would assume that is allowed. However the Rules as written don't seem to support that view. It seems funny it hasn't come up and been ruled on. Maybe that is why the pros on Tour don't let players through when they lose a ball.
We can't expect a Rule change anytime soon but I don't see why at that time there can't be an exception included to allow a search to be suspended for safety reasons to let following players through and resumed when it's all clear as long as the total time spent searching doesn't exceed 5 minutes.
In the meantime we await the R&A's reply to PalindromicBob.
palindromicbob
Tour Winner
How long do they usually take to respond?
bobmac
Major Champion
What does etiquette say you should do when looking for your ball and there are people waiting behind?
I was just trying to suggest the decision was open to an alternative interpretation in the sake of common sense.
chrisd
Major Champion
This is just about the best rules question I've seen on here as it's a very clear cut decision but also clear to me that the rule was written long before the advent of health and safety. The answer has to be that, as the rule is more important than ettiquette, that you dont call anyone through if it means you stop searching.
I really do wonder what the R&A will say!
I really do wonder what the R&A will say!
duncan mackie
Money List Winner
Chris - it may well be that in deciding that 5mins is an appropriate time for a search they took into account such possible interferences with the process.....then again they may not!
The critical thing is that it's the same for everybody and, as ever in the rules, there are times when you get an edge (on a hypothetical FC for whom the same thing happens but in a different place) or loose an edge.
I cannot see how they will respond with anything other than 'unless instructed by the committee, or of course it's representative, the process of calling through another game would not stop the clock on the search.
I'm interested in who Pal-Bob actually asked what because in general they don't respond to hypothetical questions!
Birchy
Money List Winner
What happens if when your letting the group behind through they hit it in rough also and have to let the next group through. In the meantime your 5 minutes have been eaten up and you havent even had 30 seconds never mind 5 minutes?
Colin L
Tour Winner
On a practical level, is the delay to your search while the game behind plays through enough generally to matter? You only have to be on the alert at the point each player hits the ball and for as much of its flight as you need to know whether it is coming anywhere near you. I'm just thinking what I do in those circumstances - which is to keep tramping around while keeping an eye on the game behind, stop for a moment to watch the flight of a shot, and as often as not get on with the tramping around while the ball is in the air because I see it isn't going anywhere near me. And obviously as soon as all have played, your search carries on uninterrupted. If one of them has hacked into the jungle and is searching for his ball, you are still searching. Are we talking of anything more than a few seconds of interruption to your search? Clearly more if you are talking of having to cross to the other side to feel safe, but I really don't know how common that is.
bobmac
Major Champion
I've just spoken to a rules official at the R&A and she' not sure herself.
She will however speak to her colleagues and call me back this afternoon with a decision.
She will however speak to her colleagues and call me back this afternoon with a decision.
chrisd
Major Champion
It may well be the case that they took it into account, but highly likely not. Mostly when calling a group through we continue to look with the person who waved them keeping lookout. It is though a valid point that needs clarification as "doing the right thing" may penalise the do gooder.
bobmac
Major Champion
Well, I spoke to the R&A and explained the following situation
2 golfers tee off at a right to left dogleg par 4 and player A hits it into the rough on the corner of the dog leg in line with the green.
They move forward to look for the ball and after 2 mins searching, the group behind have appeared on the tee behind them ready to tee off.
In line with etiquette, and not wanting to hold them up, they call the following group to play through. For their own safety, they cross over to the other side of the fairway on the right to be out of line of the golfers teeing off.
When the players have played through which takes 5 minutes, the 2 ball then cross the fairway back to where the ball is still missing. Are they allowed to continue searching for the remaining 3 minutes?
The answer given by the R&A was Yes.
As long as the total searching time wasn't more than 5 minutes and they were no where near the ball while the following group where teeing off they can resume their search.
2 golfers tee off at a right to left dogleg par 4 and player A hits it into the rough on the corner of the dog leg in line with the green.
They move forward to look for the ball and after 2 mins searching, the group behind have appeared on the tee behind them ready to tee off.
In line with etiquette, and not wanting to hold them up, they call the following group to play through. For their own safety, they cross over to the other side of the fairway on the right to be out of line of the golfers teeing off.
When the players have played through which takes 5 minutes, the 2 ball then cross the fairway back to where the ball is still missing. Are they allowed to continue searching for the remaining 3 minutes?
The answer given by the R&A was Yes.
As long as the total searching time wasn't more than 5 minutes and they were no where near the ball while the following group where teeing off they can resume their search.
duncan mackie
Money List Winner
very fairly worded question, clear answer. well done Bob
